Henneth Annûn Story Archive

This is a continuation of the Pending Resource Library Corrections thread in the Reference Library - entries, requests, etc. discussion. - Barbara

 

In reply to my post in the old thread: noticed an error in the RoTK Tale of Years: 2852 [incorrect, should be 2872] Belecthor II of Gondor dies. The White Tree dies, and no seedling can be found. The Dead Tree is left standing. Lyllyn, this affects the date of your entry The White Tree dies and is not replanted, and it affects the text in my entry for the White Tree of Gondor. I will correct both of them in the next few days. I have corrected the date in both of these entries. - Barbara

 

Reply to Liz's post: This is also highly relevant to the timeline in my Gondorians bio, so thanks for spotting it and flagging it up! You're welcome! As I'll be looking through that part of the timeline fairly closely when I get to it, I'll let you know if I spot anything else it affects. Thank you! I later did a Resources search on 'Belecthor', '2852', and 'White Tree', so I think I found the most likely problem areas. - Barbara

 

We decided recently to changes references to Boromir of the Fellowship from "Boromir II" to just plain "Boromir". I did a search on B II yesterday, and saw that Faramir's bio and Adrahil's birth event had B II, so I changed them. Unfortunately, there is also a (*very* nice) Research Article titled "Boromir II", which probably also contains references to B II. Lyllyn, I have no clue who wrote this. If you can figure it out, would you mind asking them to change the name and any internal references? No rush, of course... - Barbara

 

Lyllyn, this affects the date of your entry The White Tree dies and is not replanted, and it affects the text in my entry for the White Tree of Gondor. I will correct both of them in the next few days. I have corrected the date in both of these entries. Thanks!

 

Hi Barbara there is also a (*very* nice) Research Article titled "Boromir II", which probably also contains references to B II. If it's this story, it's by shadow975. She can be e-mailed through the site. HTH Cheers, Liz

 

Thanks, Liz... guess I was too sleepy to register that it's a regular story, so the author name would be in the header... duh! - Barbara

 

I think I goofed... a few days ago, I added "Uttermost West" as a synonym to the entry for Valinor. But after some discussion with Liz (about Elvenhome), I finally understand that Aman is the continental land-mass upon which Valinor is a region/realm, as is Elvenhome/Eldamar. So, I moved "Uttermost West" to Aman from Valinor. - Barbara Edit: And I corrected the Place Names: Synonyms list as well... Edit 2: Lyllyn, you might want to adjust the description in your Valinor entry, which makes it sound the same as Aman...

 

Lyllyn, you may remember we had an e-mail exchange a few weeks back about what date Tolkien meant by "Midsummer's day" and the effect that would have on timeline entries. This was in reference to the date of a First Age battle. While I was working on something else, I happened to noticed you have 1 July as the date for Aragorn and Arwen Plight Their Troth, which took place "on the evening of Midsummer". I think, based on our previous discussions, that this should be 20 June. I'll quote my reasoning from our e-mail exchange:

The summer solstice is 21st June but Midsummer Day in Britain - which is one of the quarter days when rents were due - is 24 June (the Feast of St John). I was looking in Appendix B and D and trying to work out which date Tolkien meant by Midsummer's Day. This is complicated by the fact that the M-e calendars don't correspond entirely to ours. It says in Appendix D with respect to the Shire calendar: It appears, however, that Mid-year's Day was intended to correspond as nearly as possible to the summer solstice. In that case, the Shire dates were in advance of ours by some ten days and our New Year's Day corresponded more or less to the Shire January 8. In Appendix B, Aragorn and Arwen are married on Mid-year's day, which is given as 1 Lithe in the Tale of Years. As I understand it, the Tale of Years is based on the Shire Calendar (hence 30 days in February) so 1 Lithe is between really between Forelithe and Afterlithe) and is the 182nd day of the year. Another difficulty is that we are dealing here with a First Age date, presumably under an elven calendar, and we are dealing with a narrative "written" by one person (Pengolodh?), "translated" by another (Bilbo) and then "translated" again by Tolkien. The only elven calendar we have is the Calendar of Imladris, but it's not a huge stretch to imagine this is probably very similar to the first age Noldorin calendar (given Elrond's antecedents). That calendar gives three enderi or middle days between the two middle months, which would also be on the 182nd day of the _coranar_ or solar year observed by the elves. The question is when this solar year starts. We're told in Appendix B that the Elves' New Year is April 6 (the date of the meeting of Celeborn and Thranduil), which would push Mid-year's day back to October. But that's clearly not Midsummer's day.... My feeling from all of that is that you should use the summer solstice of 21 June (rather than the Feast of St John on 24 June).

Anyway, two things: 1. Unless anyone objects or disagrees with my reasoning, I will change the date in the entry for Aragorn and Arwen plighting their troth to 20 June. 2. Should a version of these comments about what "Midsummer" means go in either the Tools and Templates or Preferred Practices articles, or some other place where they won't get lost? Cheers, Liz

 

Wow, Liz, I admire your ability to pull that together... *blinking very hard to remove glaze from eyes* 2. Should a version of these comments about what "Midsummer" means go in either the Tools and Templates or Preferred Practices articles, or some other place where they won't get lost? I'd like the result to be in the Preferred Practices article, but not necessarily the rationale. How about a "Quick-reference Guide for Entering Dates", which would translate all those funny names of days (Midsummer's Day, Foreyule, Afterlithe, Intermittent) into a "real" date that we can enter in the timeline? Maybe even a list of month names and their modern equivalent? Now, if you'd like to store the explanation somewhere, maybe we can have a Resources: Rationale behind Preferred Practices story, which would reference the chapter name in the Resources: Preferred Practices one? It would contain the distilled and finalized reasoning (as in your post above), rather than the long strings of discussions we might have to reach that point. How does that sound? - Barbara, still impressed...

 

Hi Barbara *blinking very hard to remove glaze from eyes* I bet you weren't half as glazed-eyed as I was after ploughing through Appendix D and wondering why Tolkien had to make this all so damn difficult! I'd like the result to be in the Preferred Practices article, but not necessarily the rationale. How about a "Quick-reference Guide for Entering Dates" Sure! It was mostly the result I was concerned about sharing. I think if the rationale is in the forums where we thrashed it out, we don't need to store it separately, just remember it exists if we ever do need to go and consult it for any reason. The main thing is that, when we get a date like Midsummer or Yule, we're all entering the same thing. I did realise, during that exchange with Lyllyn and also the one I had with you about elements in place names (marches and downs and fens and holts and so on) that I have some huge cultural advantages as a result of being British! The trouble is, I usually don't realise what is culturally specific that I should tell you non-Brits about, until after we run into something like this! Cheers, Liz

 

I bet you weren't half as glazed-eyed as I was after ploughing through Appendix D and wondering why Tolkien had to make this all so damn difficult! I can only imagine... How about a "Quick-reference Guide for Entering Dates" Sure! It was mostly the result I was concerned about sharing. Excellent! I did realise, during that exchange with Lyllyn and also the one I had with you about elements in place names (marches and downs and fens and holts and so on) that I have some huge cultural advantages as a result of being British! The trouble is, I usually don't realise what is culturally specific that I should tell you non-Brits about, until after we run into something like this! Your special area of expertise is much appreciated! (I would never have figured out what the heck the Dimholt referred to without you...) - Barbara

 

I changed the date for Aragorn and Arwen Plight Their Troth to 20 June, as per the above discussion. Barbara, do we want to make the "odd dates" a chapter in Tools and Templates? Cheers, Liz

 

I changed the date for Aragorn and Arwen Plight Their Troth to 20 June, as per the above discussion. Good! Barbara, do we want to make the "odd dates" a chapter in Tools and Templates? Yes, and I would consider it a tool similar to the chapter on creating links, so I would call it something like: "Quick Reference: ...". - Barbara

 

Yes, and I would consider it a tool similar to the chapter on creating links, so I would call it something like: "Quick Reference: ...". Yes, exactly. Umm "Quick Reference: Entering Unusual Dates in Timeline Events"? At the moment we have Midsummer equals summer solstice (21 June). However, I've just realised (*bangs head on desk*) that we have to deal with the ToY saying "Mid-year's Day Wedding of Elessar and Arwen" and RotK saying "And Aragorn the King Elessar wedded Arwen Undómiel in the City of the Kings upon the day of Midsummer, and the tale of their long waiting and labours was come to fulfilment." So Mid-Year's Day, which is not in any month (being mid-Lithe, between "June" and "July") apparently equals Midsummer, which we think equals 21 June. Which means that, right now, we have Aragorn weds Arwen before Aragorn/Elessar finds the sapling of the White Tree in the timeline. But Midsummer equals 1 July makes no sense either to me, especially as all the calendars suggest they are anchored to the solstices.... And never mind the whole 29th and 30th of February thing. Arghhh (*bangs head on desk again*). *sigh* We really could do with a proper Tolkien calendar for the timeline, couldn't we? But I know that would be a LOT of work for Ang. :-( Any thoughts? Liz *confuzzled and despairing*

 

Umm "Quick Reference: Entering Unusual Dates in Timeline Events"? Sounds great! Um, I'm dealing with a bit of Real Life (an important phone call coming) right now and don't even understand the rest of your post... sorry that I can't cut through the confusion... - Barbara

 

Hi Barbara (and everyone else) Sorry, I wasn't very clear in my last post! I didn't really have it straight in my own head at the time, but I chatted it through with Marta and that helped, so I hope I can explain it better today. (Before I go any further, I want to make it clear that I'm not expecting Ang to come up with a technical fix to this. Much as a proper M-e calendar for entering timeline events would be lovely, I vaguely recall a conversation in which Ang explained that this would be an enormous amount of work and we agreed that this simply wasn't justified. (If I'm wrong, and it's easy-peasy, don't let me stop you, Ang! - but my understanding is that it wouldn't be easy.) So I'm really looking to work out how we deal with this with the real-world calendar software we're currently using.) Anyway, it all comes down to the fact that M-e calendars are not the same as the real-world calendar most of us use. The Tale of Years is based on the Shire Calendar, but with the names of the months translated to the real-world ones eg Forelithe becomes June and Afterlithe becomes July. But the Shire months all have 30 days, so we get events for 29 and 30 February, while there are five days outside the months (Yule 1 and 2, Lithe 1, Midyear's Day/Overlithe/Midsummer, Lithe 2) on which some events also happen (Arwen arrives in MT on Lithe 1; Aragorn and Arwen's wedding happens on Midyear's day). So the question is: what dates in the real world calendar do we use for these specifically M-e dates? Now Midsummer means something very specific in Britain: generally the summer solstice (21 June) and not e.g. 1 July or 1 August. If we take Midsummer = 21 June when using the real-world calendar in the timeline events database, then that shifts all the dates of other events back so that, say, the destruction of the One Ring takes place on something like 16 March (sorry, I can't be bothered to work out what it is exactly, but I hope you get the idea). But if we entered all the dates on the corresponding real world date, we would confuse the heck out of people ("What do you mean, the destruction of the one Ring takes place on 16 March? It's March 25!") So I'm now very confused about how we enter these dates and other dates from the 3018-3020 part of the Third Age. (It matters much less outside that because so few events have specific dates and the ones that do are generally relative to a single date eg the Nirnaeth Arnoediad starts on midsummer and all events are x days after it starts. So we can pick 21 June as the start, and then just go on from there.) The sequence that particular bothered me is this one from Appendix B: June 3019 25 King Elessar finds the sapling of the White Tree. 1 Lithe Arwen comes to the City. Mid-year's Day Wedding of Elessar and Arwen. At the moment, we have the Wedding of Elessar and Arwen dated as 21 June, but King Elessar finding the sapling of the White Tree on 25 June. So our timeline reads: 21 June 3019 Wedding of Elessar and Arwen. 25 June 3019 King Elessar finds the sapling of the White Tree. Which is definitely "not right". But does it make sense to fudge the issue and make 1 Lithe into 1 July (and put a note in the body of the entry)? That also seems somewhat awkward and "not right" to me, but I suspect may the best option we have. This is further complicated by the fact that the Elven Calendar of Imladris has 6 long months or short seasons of 72 or 54 days, as well as several days falling outside the "months", and appears to be a solar calendar. So that for First Age dates and for events such as "Aragorn and Arwen plight their troth", I really do think it means Midsummer = 21 June. So either we make Midsummer = 1 July for all years or enter Midsummer = 21 June for all years except in 3018-3020, when Midsummer = 1 July, with a note in the body of the entry. I think Barbara raised the point a while back over in the old admin discussions thread that at present you can enter dates on 29 Feb and 30 Feb in the timeline, but these then don't display properly? So presumably events on 29 Feb and 30 Feb should be entered on 28 Feb with a note in the body of the entry with the "real" date? I hope this is a clearer explanation of what's bothering me. None of these solutions feel particularly "right", but I'm not sure there are better ones. Anyway, I would appreciate others' input so we can come to some sort of agreement about how we work with these odd dates. Cheers, Liz

 

Hi Liz! I'm going to have to think about the implications of the rest of your post, but the one thing I can respond to immediately is this: I think Barbara raised the point a while back over in the old admin discussions thread that at present you can enter dates on 29 Feb and 30 Feb in the timeline, but these then don't display properly? Yes. So presumably events on 29 Feb and 30 Feb should be entered on 28 Feb with a note in the body of the entry with the "real" date? Yes, that's what I've been doing... except that I use 28 Feb for 29 Feb events, and 1 Mar for 30 Feb events. For 3019, there were simply too many "real" 28 Feb and 29 Feb events in the 28 Feb slot to put the 30 Feb events there, too. A good half of the events on 28 Feb and 1 Mar of 3019 seem to have actually occurred on the in-between days... (And I put the note with the correct date right at the top of the entry so it can't be missed.) See Éomer attacks the Orc-raiders at Fangorn (29 Feb) and Éomer meets the Three Hunters in the Eastemnet (30 Feb) for examples. - Barbara

 

Hi Barbara Thanks for clarifying the 29/30 Feb issue - that seems like an excellent solution and should definitely go in "Quick Reference: Entering Unusual Dates in Timeline Events". (Although I suspect you have probably entered most of the events for those dates already.) I appreciate you need time to think about the "Midsummer" issue. I just can't see as neat a solution as the way you're handling the February dates in 3019 either. For practical reasons, and because it's consistent with what we're doing for February, I'm more and more coming down on the side of using 30 June or 1 July for the three Lithe/Mid-year days in 3018-3019, but I still feel we should perhaps be using 21 June in other years. Cheers, Liz

 

Hi Liz! Thanks for clarifying the 29/30 Feb issue - that seems like an excellent solution and should definitely go in "Quick Reference: Entering Unusual Dates in Timeline Events". You're welcome ... always happy to help with the easy stuff. For practical reasons, and because it's consistent with what we're doing for February, I'm more and more coming down on the side of using 30 June or 1 July for the three Lithe/Mid-year days in 3018-3019, but I still feel we should perhaps be using 21 June in other years. Now that I've "slept on" the questions in your original post, I think I have some clearer understanding. I do agree that, in order to sequence the crowded calendar correctly, we need to use something other than 21 June for 3018-3018, and I would suggest 30 June for 1 Lithe and Mid-year's Day, and 1 July for Overlithe (in leap years like 3020) and 2 Lithe. But I wonder whether we should use a different date for other years, even though the chronology isn't so crowded? He seems to be using the Shire calendar (but translating the month names into ones we recognize); so, wouldn't Mid-year's Day in one year be the same day in another year? We know that (for example) "January 1" in his ToY is our January 2 (assuming our years started on the same day), so do we use "January 1" in 3019 and "January 2" in other years? I think not. So I would argue for using the same set of date equivalents for every year. Sorry it took me a while to wrap my brain around dates -- Tolkien's playing with Edit: multiple calendars, though brilliant, has turned me off right from the beginning. - Barbara Edit: Oh, and a note explaining the date equivalent is definitely necessary whenever we use it... if you'd like, you could suggest the wording of such a note in the quick reference guide...

 

Hi Barbara I would suggest 30 June for 1 Lithe and Mid-year's Day, and 1 July for Overlithe (in leap years like 3020) and 2 Lithe. Hmm, I think I'd rather have 30 June for 1 Lithe and 1 July for Mid-year's Day, Overlithe (in leap years like 3020) and 2 Lithe. We have events on 1 Lithe (Arwen's arrival) and Mid-years day (Arwen and Aragorn's marriage) in 3019 and it would be nice to have on separate days in the timeline (to avoid any possible confusion from someone looking quickly that they are on the same day), whereas the other years just have events on Mid-year's day. Also, if we look at revising how the timeline is displayed, we may want to consider putting something in the title of these events on the odd dates to indicate they *are* an "odd date" event and the actual date should be checked in the entry? Also, now I've thought about it some more again and seen your reasoning, I agree we should be consistent and use the same dates for all years. (Much as it pains me to put anything other than 21 June for Mid-year's day, this does make much more sense.) Sorry it took me a while to wrap my brain around dates -- Tolkien's playing with Edit: multiple calendars, though brilliant, has turned me off right from the beginning. No problem: as you can see, I was pretty confused myself about how to deal with this. Edit: Oh, and a note explaining the date equivalent is definitely necessary whenever we use it... if you'd like, you could suggest the wording of such a note in the quick reference guide... I think suggested standardised wording in the Quick Reference guide is an excellent idea! And will remind people they *should* put a note in! Cheers, Liz

 

I would suggest 30 June for 1 Lithe and Mid-year's Day, and 1 July for Overlithe (in leap years like 3020) and 2 Lithe. Hmm, I think I'd rather have 30 June for 1 Lithe and 1 July for Mid-year's Day, Overlithe (in leap years like 3020) and 2 Lithe. We have events on 1 Lithe (Arwen's arrival) and Mid-years day (Arwen and Aragorn's marriage) in 3019 and it would be nice to have on separate days in the timeline (to avoid any possible confusion from someone looking quickly that they are on the same day), whereas the other years just have events on Mid-year's day. Since that is exactly the kind of real-world concern that made me move 30Feb to 1Mar instead of 28Feb, I concur wholeheartedly. Also, if we look at revising how the timeline is displayed, we may want to consider putting something in the title of these events on the odd dates to indicate they *are* an "odd date" event and the actual date should be checked in the entry? You know, I was wondering about that before. I almost started putting something like (29 Feb) or (30 Feb) into the title of events... but dropped it to concentrate my worry about other things. I'm certainly open to that idea, and to suggestions about how to do it (parentheses?). One more reason to appreciate being able to sequence events once we get the new Resources section going... Edit: Now I remember... part of the reason I didn't do it was that we have no way (now) to sort the entries so that the dates fall together... I thought it would look odd to have them mixed together. Also, now I've thought about it some more again and seen your reasoning, I agree we should be consistent and use the same dates for all years. (Much as it pains me to put anything other than 21 June for Mid-year's day, this does make much more sense.) Good. Yes, precision can be painful sometimes... I think suggested standardised wording in the Quick Reference guide is an excellent idea! And will remind people they *should* put a note in! Good. And yes, that was part of my ulterior motive... - Barbara

 

Hi Barbara Also, if we look at revising how the timeline is displayed, we may want to consider putting something in the title of these events on the odd dates to indicate they *are* an "odd date" event and the actual date should be checked in the entry? You know, I was wondering about that before. I almost started putting something like (29 Feb) or (30 Feb) into the title of events... [...] Now I remember... part of the reason I didn't do it was that we have no way (now) to sort the entries so that the dates fall together... I thought it would look odd to have them mixed together. That makes sense. Probably something to revisit when we see what comes out of the resources redesign in terms of sequencing events? I think suggested standardised wording in the Quick Reference guide is an excellent idea! And will remind people they *should* put a note in! Another thought would be to have a Quick Reference chapter laying out exactly what timeframe each era in the database encompasses? (eg Third Age - Ring War goes up to the Battle on Bywater on November 3 3019. I remember being initially confused and thinking it only went up to March 25 3019 and the destruction of the One Ring, so I was putting events in Post-Ring War that didn't belong there). BTW, RL may be dragging me off again for a while. (I guess I can't complain if people want to give me large amounts of money, even if I do have to do something in return...!) I hope I'll still be able to spend some time in resources, but I would like to get the History of Gondor "finished" this weekend in case I do have to disappear for a fairly long stretch. Cheers, Liz

 

Hi Liz! Another thought would be to have a Quick Reference chapter laying out exactly what timeframe each era in the database encompasses? (eg Third Age - Ring War goes up to the Battle on Bywater on November 3 3019. I remember being initially confused and thinking it only went up to March 25 3019 and the destruction of the One Ring, so I was putting events in Post-Ring War that didn't belong there). Yes, we could do that, or maybe it would be better to increase the specificity of the table on the add/change an event page? At the bottom of all the instructions, there's a table, which just lists years. We could maybe expand it to list specific dates (eg, Battle of Bywater) instead. Looks like there's some room for expansion. (I guess I can't complain if people want to give me large amounts of money, even if I do have to do something in return...!) I hope I'll still be able to spend some time in resources, but I would like to get the History of Gondor "finished" this weekend in case I do have to disappear for a fairly long stretch. Hope your project goes well! Ah, yes, an income -- what a lovely concept in theory! And we will be ready to warmly welcome you back when you return. (Translation: we will miss you -- a lot!) - Barbara

 

Question for Liz: (and I'm to lazy to go find the original post...) When you suggested an entry for "Saruman allies with the Dunlendings", did you have some specific quote in mind that mentions him making overtures? Or is it just the fact that his agents in the Shire were Dunlendings (maybe the ruffians, too?), and that many of the troops in the invasion were hill-men? All I can find is "after-the-fact" sort of stuff -- but I've been looking at this for so long that I could be missing something... - Barbara, who has put off doing the uber-Overview for the Invasion of the Westfold of Rohan by Saruman long enough...

 

Hi Barbara I tracked the original post down at last here. When you suggested an entry for "Saruman allies with the Dunlendings", did you have some specific quote in mind that mentions him making overtures? I could have sworn I did, but as I didn't reference it in the original post, and I can't work out what I was thinking at the time.... What I have found is: In this way Saruman began to behave as a lord of Men; for at first he held Isengard as a lieutenant of the Steward and warden of the tower. But Fréaláf was as glad as Beren to have this so, and to know that Isengard was in the hands of a strong friend. A friend he long seemed, and maybe in the beginning he was one in truth. Though afterwards there was little doubt in men's minds that Saruman went to Isengard in hope to find the Stone still there, and with the purpose of building up a power of his own. Certainly after the last White Council (2953) his designs towards Rohan, though he hid them, were evil. He then took Isengard for his own and began to make it a place of guarded strength and fear, as though to rival the Barad-dûr. His friends and servants he drew then from all who hated Gondor and Rohan, whether Men or other creatures more evil. The Return of the King, LoTR Appendix A, Annals of the Kings and Rulers: The House of Eorl It was soon after Thengel's return that Saruman declared himself Lord of Isengard and began to give trouble to Rohan, encroaching on its borders and supporting its enemies. The Return of the King, LoTR Appendix A, Annals of the Kings and Rulers: The House of Eorl: The Kings of the Mark The usual way was by the crossing of Tharbad to Dunland (rather than direct to Isengard), whence goods were sent more secretly on to Saruman. [Author's note.] "Unfinished Tales, Part 3, Ch 4, The Hunt for the Ring: Notes, Note 18 Beyond the Gap the land between Isen and Adorn was nominally part of the realm of Rohan; but though Folcwine had reclaimed it, driving out the Dunlendings that had occupied it, the people that remained were largely of mixed blood, and their loyalty to Edoras was weak: the slaying of their lord, Freca, by King Helm was still remembered. Indeed at this time they were more disposed to side with Saruman, and many of their warriors had joined Saruman's forces. In any case there was no way into their land from the west except for bold swimmers. "Unfinished Tales, Part 3, Ch 5, The Battles of the Fords of Isen: Notes, Note 4 Saruman had long taken an interest in the Shire [...] For this he used Hobbits within the Shire, in the pay of the Bracegirdles and the Sackville-Bagginses, but his agents were Men, of Dunlendish origin. Unfinished Tales, Part 3, Ch 4, The Hunt for the Ring: Other Versions of the Story If I can remember why I was prompted to suggest this, other than after-the-fact comments, I'll let you know. HTH Cheers, Liz

 

Hi Barbara Answering posts in reverse order. Yes, we could do that, or maybe it would be better to increase the specificity of the table on the add/change an event page? At the bottom of all the instructions, there's a table, which just lists years. We could maybe expand it to list specific dates (eg, Battle of Bywater) instead. Looks like there's some room for expansion. Sure. I knew the table was there, and that it was not completely helpful! What I was thinking was that when we get new researchers, we could point them to the research article and say "all sorts of useful stuff is in there"? But we could also smile sweetly at Ang and ask her to revise the table as part of the resources redevelopment. And we will be ready to warmly welcome you back when you return. (Translation: we will miss you -- a lot!) Thanks I hope I will still be able to do some resources stuff - not sure if this project will be as manic as the last one.... Cheers, Liz

 

Ah, thank you Liz! It was the first two that I was missing: "His friends and servants he drew then from all who hated Gondor and Rohan, whether Men or other creatures more evil." and "... encroaching on its borders and supporting its enemies." Those, along with: "Thus the Rohirrim earned the hatred of the Dunlendings.... Whenever the Rohirrim were weak or in trouble the Dunlendings renewed their attacks." Unfinished Tales, Part 3, Ch 5, The Battles of the Fords of Isen: Appendix will establish his overtures. Thank you very much! - Barbara

 

What I was thinking was that when we get new researchers, we could point them to the research article and say "all sorts of useful stuff is in there"? But we could also smile sweetly at Ang and ask her to revise the table as part of the resources redevelopment. Yes, I think both would be helpful. For example, Ang's table could give specific dates, but the Quick Reference could give actual event names for the dates... I hope I will still be able to do some resources stuff - not sure if this project will be as manic as the last one.... I hope your project isn't quite as manic too... part of the reason I'm not working is those 80-100 hour work weeks... I just couldn't do it any more... - Barbara OT: Liz, I think the Resources feedback thread you started has been tremendously successful -- thank you! I've held back from replying to any of the posts (don't want to scare anyone off...), but I think we have some tremendous ideas there! I know Gwynnyd is in your beta circle; if you get a chance, would you please give her a tremendous thank-you from me? I just about started dancing when I saw her post! So many meaty and specific ideas! Woohoo!

 

It was the first two that I was missing: Excellent! I'm glad I wasn't imagining this as an event. OT: Liz, I think the Resources feedback thread you started has been tremendously successful -- thank you! I've held back from replying to any of the posts (don't want to scare anyone off...), but I think we have some tremendous ideas there! Yes, accidental but successful. And thanks for holding back from replying — I think just Lyllyn and I are quite scary enough on our own.: evil Which reminds me, I need to go and thank Elcalion and Gwynnyd. I know Gwynnyd is in your beta circle; if you get a chance, would you please give her a tremendous thank-you from me? I just about started dancing when I saw her post! So many meaty and specific ideas! Woohoo! I did and *blushes, but she told me to say this*: "Hey! Most of the specific suggestions were yours, so standup and take credit if you like! " (We were having an IM conversation where we discussed what she was struggling with when trying to use Resources — and as she's such an ace researcher normally, this is definitely odd — and I was throwing out suggestions that I thought might make things easier, based on the issues she was running into and what I know about how the data is currently structured. Gwynnyd is always a great person to bounce ideas around with and spark off new thoughts.) Umm, anyway, credit claimed! Cheers, Liz

 

Hi,

I'm compiling the To Do: Genealogical Events list for the Rulers of Númenor, and ran into a problem that I cannot fix:

I wanted to change the title of "Tar-Telemmaitë becomes King" to "... becomes King of Númenor", but cannot access the event (evid=102) from the Edit/Link Events screen.

It can be displayed, but it throws an error message: "Variable AGEBEGIN is undefined."; so I think it's one of the cases where the first date is screwed up.

Lyllyn, could you fix the date of this entry, please?

Thanks!
- Barbara

 

Aha! the problem was no age selected, and I can't figure out how I did the original entry without it. Thanks for putting the evid# in the message - that's the only way I was able to access the entry.

It should be OK now.

Lyllyn

 

Aha! the problem was no age selected, and I can't figure out how I did the original entry without it.

Extraordinary talent?

It should be OK now.

Thanks, Lyllyn! And I fixed the title.

- Barbara

P.S. Fixed a minor typo in Tar-Alcarin, rightful King of Númenor, does not rule, in case you want to update your file for the entry.

 

Hey ladies - I signed up for this forum just to watch the progress, but now I have a question that may be a correction needed & I didn't know where I should put it.

In "Kin-strife of Gondor-Overview", in the section "The War", I found this odd thing:
In 1432 broke out the Kin-strife. Valakar had wedded as wife a daughter of the King of Rhovannion, not of Dunedain blood. The succession of his son Eldakar was contested by other descendants of Kalmakil and Romendakil II. In the end Eldakar was driven into exile and Kastamir, great-grandson of Kalmakil's second son Kalimehtar,became king. But Eldakar drove him out again, and after that time the blood of the kingly house became more mixed, for Eldakar had the assistance of the Northmen of the Upper Anduin his mother's kin, and they were favoured by the kingly house afterwards, and many of them served in the armies of Gondor and became great in the land."

"K"s instead of "C"s in names. There's also a "Kastamir"
in "Timeline Events ~ Castamir Captures Osgiliath and Deposes Eldacar in the Kin-strife".

Is this some bit of Gondorian language morphing that I'm not familiar with, or typos?

Thanks!

EL
ohpleaseohpleaselinkswork
edit Those links did not work, and I can't get them to! Sorry! grrrr....

 

 

Elena Tiriel
Message: 44231
29 Aug 05 7:59 PM
Reply To: 44229
General Audience
Read-Only

 

Hi EdorasLass!

In 1432 broke out the Kin-strife. Valakar had wedded as wife a daughter of the King of Rhovannion, not of Dunedain blood. The succession of his son Eldakar was contested by other descendants of Kalmakil and Romendakil II.

Very odd-looking, isn't it? (And you didn't even mention Rhovannion (instead of Rhovanion) and Dunedain (instead of Dúnedain)...

The quotes that you mention are from The History of Middle-earth, which is a compendium of Tolkien's writings prior to The Lord of the Rings; in other words, it is earlier works that are not considered canon. In compiling quotes for the Resource Library entries, I use my judgment in whether to use the original names (with 'k'), or replace the names with their canon equivalents. It's completely subjective, but in general, I only replace names for very short HoME quotes -- and not even in all cases. For example, if the "modern" name is not mentioned elsewhere in the article (preferably before the older one), I will definitely substitute it, but I am much less likely to make wholesale substitutions on longer quotes, such as you cited.

It's a difficult decision whether and when to include HoME quotes, because HoME is not considered canon; but I believe that quotes from HoME -- when not inconsistent with canon -- often describe better what Tolkien had in mind... Apparently, he was a under a lot of pressure from his publisher to discard detail from the Appendices, in particular, of The Lord of the Rings. (And, sometimes, even if there is a slight inconsistency, the extra information in the HoME quote is valuable, along with a note pointing out the discrepancy.)

Is this some bit of Gondorian language morphing that I'm not familiar with, or typos?

They are not errors, but they are earlier, non-canon quotes that have information value, even when Tolkien changed his mind about spellings later on. So, they're Tolkien's mind morphing, in a sense....

Unfortunately, this problem also occurs within canon. For example, if you've read The Hobbit, you'll notice that the Dwarven names Glóin and Óin do not have accents, whereas they do in The Lord of the Rings. Is one wrong? If I put a Hobbit quote in a Resources Library entry, I use the Hobbit spelling; if I put a LoTR quote, I use the LoTR spelling.

Thanks for bringing this up, EdorasLass, and giving me an opportunity to explain my rationale....

If you have any further questions, feel free to ask...

- Barbara

ohpleaseohpleaselinkswork

LOL! It took me a long time to get them right. Here's an example of a link to an Event (the target="_blank" attribute creates a new window):

<a href="../resources/events_view.cfm?evid=249" target="_blank">Kin-strife</a>

which looks like this:
Kin-strife

 

Rhovannion (instead of Rhovanion) and Dunedain (instead of Dúnedain)...

Honestly, accents I don't notice as much -- unless they're those bloody 3rd age Rohirrim, for obvious reasons. And I totally didn't notice the double 'n' in "Rhovanion". Probably because it's not a word I deal with very often..

In compiling quotes for the Resource Library entries, I use my judgment in whether to use the original names (with 'k'), or replace the names with their canon equivalents....It's a difficult decision whether and when to include HoME quotes, because HoME is not considered canon

That makes a great deal of sense -- sometimes just a little bit of extra info can be very helpful, even if it isn't 150% canonical. It can just push you in the right direction.

But I was going to be all intrigued and totally curious if there was actually a language/spelling shift within the storyline itself that I had somehow managed to miss. Now I am a little sad that there isn't such a thing.
Although I'm kind of scratching my head at why Tolkien would even consider using the 'k' for the 'c', since he was trying to make an alternate mythology for England. I mean, in the native languages of Britan, isn't the 'c' always hard? /tangent


Thanks, Barbara! Very helpful & through,as always.

LOL! It took me a long time to get them right.
I can do the ones to stories, no problem, and usually to other people's forums okay -- but man, that's what I thought I did! But thanks! I will c&p it and keep it in a document I have just for html links.

 

Rhovannion (instead of Rhovanion) and Dunedain (instead of Dúnedain)...
Honestly, accents I don't notice as much -- unless they're those bloody 3rd age Rohirrim, for obvious reasons. And I totally didn't notice the double 'n' in "Rhovanion". Probably because it's not a word I deal with very often..

Sorry... I was channeling my Inner Geek when I wrote that....

That makes a great deal of sense -- sometimes just a little bit of extra info can be very helpful, even if it isn't 150% canonical. It can just push you in the right direction.

Yes! Exactly...

But I was going to be all intrigued and totally curious if there was actually a language/spelling shift within the storyline itself that I had somehow managed to miss. Now I am a little sad that there isn't such a thing.
Although I'm kind of scratching my head at why Tolkien would even consider using the 'k' for the 'c', since he was trying to make an alternate mythology for England. I mean, in the native languages of Britan, isn't the 'c' always hard? /tangent

Ah, so you were channeling your Inner Linguist?

Thanks, Barbara! Very helpful & through,as always.

You're welcome, EL! Always glad to talk at length about what I do...

- Barbara

P.S. Here's a cheat-sheet for Resources links:

<a href="../resources/bios_view.cfm?scid=#">Bio</a>
<a href="../resources/events_view.cfm?evid=#">Event</a>
<a href="../resources/places_view.cfm?plid=#">Place</a>
<a href="../resources/things_view.cfm?thid=#">Thing</a>

 

Hi All

I remember feeling the same sort of confusion as EL when I first saw HoMe quotes in the Resource Library, before I'd read any of the HoMe volumes. I'm wondering how many other people, who don't have such close knowlegde of HoMe as us resource geeks, are similarly confused...

I'm not sure what the answer may be, but is there any way we can make this less confusing?

I can only think of two options at present. One is "correcting" HoMe entries to the canon spellings - I don't like that idea at all. Another is putting an "explanation" of the discrepanices between canon and HoMe somewhere - but I have no idea where would make sense or whether people would ever read it.

Do you think we should be concerned about this? Do you have any other thoughts or suggestions about how we might reduce any possible confusion?

Cheers, Liz

 

I'm not sure what the answer may be, but is there any way we can make this less confusing?

I've wondered the same thing, Liz.

I sometimes "correct" (replace the non-canon spelling with the canon spelling in [brackets]) very short quotes, especially if there are not many counterbalancing quotes with the correct spellings (or if the HoME quote comes before the counterbalancing canon quote). But I don't like to do that for longer quotes.

However, if we put an explanation anywhere other than in the entry, almost no one will see it (and that includes my post above).

The only thing I can think of is to create a standard disclaimer sentence, and, after every HoME quote (or maybe just the first?), use a subscript to refer to a footnote with the standard disclaimer. This is something that I can create a template for, if we decide to go this route.

I would prefer the disclaimer to be "short and sweet"... but would have to think awhile to come up with a suggestion...

- Barbara

 

Ah, so you were channeling your Inner Linguist?

Oh yes, that girl just won't shut up. Neither will my Inner Etymologist.

and YAY! Thank you for the HTML cheat-sheet! HTML is too much like math, I think -- unless I've done it one trillion times, my brain leaves out some important factor, which just makes the whole conclusion wrong.

 

Hi EL!

Ah, so you were channeling your Inner Linguist?
Oh yes, that girl just won't shut up. Neither will my Inner Etymologist.

Inner Etymologist, huh? You know, we could always use more etymologies in Resources....

and YAY! Thank you for the HTML cheat-sheet! HTML is too much like math, I think -- unless I've done it one trillion times, my brain leaves out some important factor, which just makes the whole conclusion wrong.

LOL! EL, I *know* how to do these links, and hardly ever get them right the first time....

- Barbara

 

EL wrote: Although I'm kind of scratching my head at why Tolkien would even consider using the 'k' for the 'c', since he was trying to make an alternate mythology for England. I mean, in the native languages of Britan, isn't the 'c' always hard? /tangent

Perhaps I can soothe your Inner Linguist by pointing out that Tolkien modelled Quenya, in which most of these names are formed, on a mix of Latin, Finnish and Greek. See Ardalambion's external history of Quenya for details. Sindarin was then "modified" from Quenya to give it more of a British-Welsh feel. See Ardalambion's external history of Sindarin for more details.

Barbara wrote: Inner Etymologist, huh? You know, we could always use more etymologies in Resources....

I'll second that. It would be lovely to have more etymologies for entries....

Barbara wrote: The only thing I can think of is to create a standard disclaimer sentence, and, after every HoME quote (or maybe just the first?), use a subscript to refer to a footnote with the standard disclaimer. This is something that I can create a template for, if we decide to go this route.

Ooh, I like that idea! I agree it would need to be short and sweet. If Lyllyn is agreeable to the concept, maybe we can work something up.

Cheers, Liz

 

My first thought would be a something on the member's Resources home page. We might still want to do that when the page is revised, but I agree, most people won't look initially, and only a small number when they hit the discrepant spellings.

Maybe we need a standard disclaimer like the one on story pages, that would automatically appear? If we do go this route, it should be short, or else only a link.

Completely off the top of head, open for revisions (and ridicule)

"Note: Variations in spelling of proper names come from Tolkien's own changes. Quotations from the History of Middle-earth series in particular will exhibit earlier name spellings.

Another thought for something to go on the Member's Resource home page - a link to our heirarchy of sources, so the reasoning is clear.

Lyllyn

 

Hi folks

I just happened to be looking at Boromir's bio and noticed that his date of birth is given as III 2979. But in the Tale of Years in Appendix B, it's given under III 2978. So, unless anyone objects over the next few days, I'll correct it.

Cheers, Liz

Edit: oopsie, fixed messed-up link

 

I have no idea if this is the right discussion for this contribution or if it's of interest at all.

But: here is a post with pictures of medieval houses à la Rohan.

Rohan houses?! 

I just thought maybe some people around here are interested in the roof and wall constructions of medieval houses.

Cheers,
JunoMagic

 

I wrote: I just happened to be looking at Boromir's bio and noticed that his date of birth is given as III 2979. But in the Tale of Years in Appendix B, it's given under III 2978. So, unless anyone objects over the next few days, I'll correct it.

I just went in and edited the birthdate to 2978 to agree with the Tale of Years.

Cheers, Liz

 

Hi Juno

These are great pictures! Have you thought about submitting the permalink for your LJ entry to the HASA URL library?

If you can find any other sites on mediaeval building techniques (the Fränkischen Freilandmuseums site didn't seem to have many pictures ), they would be a great addition.

(I have some very good print books on mediaeval construction including timber-framed buildings; you may have piqued my interest enough to spend some time seeing if I can find the same kind of information online.... no, back foul nuzgul...! *kicks out with mithril boots*)

Thanks for sharing.

Cheers, Liz

 

How do I submit a permalink?

And the link was mainly to show where I got the pictures - to reassure people that they are not being hoodwinked or something. 

I have many, many more pictures - I took more than 150 that day - very, very many from 18th century farmhouses and especially their kitchens (thinking hobbits! hobbits!) 

I looked for stuff online, but the pictures are often not of a good quality... 

For a real library entry I'd like to look up a bit more, so I can use all the fancy terms (at the moment I know them in German, but for the most part not in English...). And I would like to wait until I have a paid account with Photobucket...

But I'm game for it.

(I have also *not* forgotten about the other research articles I owe you. Only real life is harder on research articles than stories. But I expect I'll get that stuff done ere I drop down with old age and palsy...)

Cheers,
Juno

 

Hi Juno

How do I submit a permalink?

You can add an URL from this page. (And by a permalink, I meant the one you put in your original post, which won't change, rather than a link to your LJ home page )

I have many, many more pictures - I took more than 150 that day - very, very many from 18th century farmhouses and especially their kitchens (thinking hobbits! hobbits!) .... For a real library entry I'd like to look up a bit more, so I can use all the fancy terms (at the moment I know them in German, but for the most part not in English...). And I would like to wait until I have a paid account with Photobucket... But I'm game for it.

Ooh, ooh.... that would be a fabulous URL or research article (however you choose to do it)!

I was actually looking at doing something similar myself on "domestic cookery" to compliment my Cooking for Rangers article. But if you do it, I don't need to.

I'd love to help you out on this with translations of the "fancy terms" if you want. (And I shall confine myself to doing something on the actual "cookery" side rather than the "architecture" side.)

Hmm, I'm wondering if we need a separate thread to round up all this "real-world domestic" stuff., as I have some other ideas for research articles along these kind of themes that I'd like to write. Edit I started a thread over here

(I have also *not* forgotten about the other research articles I owe you. Only real life is harder on research articles than stories. But I expect I'll get that stuff done ere I drop down with old age and palsy...)

Oh, hey, I have three or four research articles I'm meant to be working on... I understand completely!

Cheers, Liz

 

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