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Discussing: Haradrim, Haradric, Haradaic...

Haradrim, Haradric, Haradaic...

Two basic questions here. 1. What is the singular for Haradrim? A Haradrim? (But doesn't "-rim" indicate a plural? Gondolindrim, Rohirrim?) 2. What is the language called: Haradric, Haradaic...? Thanks! Allie

 

 

Re: Haradrim, Haradric, Haradaic...

Hi Allie I had a quick check of the HASA Resources section and found a link in the URL library to a lovely site The History of the Men of Darkness in Rhún and Harad, which seems to have comprehensive information on Haradrim. (We do have HASA Resource Library entries for Haradrim and Haradwaith, but I don't think they're quite as comprehensive.) HTH Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Haradrim, Haradric, Haradaic...

But doesn't "-rim" indicate a plural? Gondolindrim, Rohirrim? Yes, this is correct. "-rim" is a Sindarin suffix for "host." Technically, the Haradrim probably wouldn't call themselves Haradrim in their native language, the same way a Japanese person doesn't call themselves Japanese (it's "Nihonjin" in Japanese). I believe the proper singular form is "Harad." Although, Tolkien himself uses this as a plural form in at least one instance that I can find right now. In "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit," Damrod says: "T'is said that there were dealings of dol between Gondor and the kingdoms of the Harad in the far south." You also have the option of using the term "Southron." The Rangers of Ithilien seemed to use it often enough. As for a name for a language, I'm not certain if Tolkien ever bothered to give it a name. So, I suppose you could use either one of those options. Another way to go, though; "Harad" is technically a Sindarin word meaning "south." You could use the all-Sindarin term "Haradlam," which means "south-tongue." Just a couple stabs at answering your questions. ^_^ Bado na sídh. Berz.

 

 

Re: Haradrim, Haradric, Haradaic...

Hi Berz, I agree with everything you said, except: I believe the proper singular form is "Harad." Although, Tolkien himself uses this as a plural form in at least one instance that I can find right now. In "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit," Damrod says: "T'is said that there were dealings of dol between Gondor and the kingdoms of the Harad in the far south." I do not interpret that to mean "the kingdoms of the Haradrim people" (i.e. plural) but to mean "the kingdoms of the south". Let me do a search and see if I can find anything more about the original question... - Barbara

 

 

Re: Haradrim, Haradric, Haradaic...

Hi Allie, I couldn't find a singular reference to any Haradrim; however, along with Berz's suggestion of Southrons, they were also called Swertings. I didn't find any references that named the language, either. Sorry! Tolkien left so much unspecified... - Barbara

 

 

Re: Haradrim, Haradric, Haradaic...

Hi Allie I didn't have time to fully research a specific answer when I posted yesterday, and I didn't want to give you one off the top of my head that I wasn't 100 per cent sure on, which was why I just pointed you to the sources. So many thanks to Berz and Barbara for doing the legwork to confirm several of the points I was thinking of. There was one more idea I wanted to raise: I don't think the Haradrim spoke an entirely separate language of their own. This is extrapolating from the sources rather than anything Tolkien specifically wrote, but I think they would speak a dialect of or descendent Adûnaic. Harad has its origins as a Numenorean-led settlement, like Gondor, but under the control of the "bad guys" ie the King's Men, who abandoned Sindarin for Adûnaic at the end. Of course, after 3000 [Edit: not enough coffee yet] years, the language would probably be somewhat "corrupted". The Haradrim would also (and maybe only) speak a variant Westron or Common Speech, with some dialect words. HTH Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Haradrim, Haradric, Haradaic...

I agree with that idea, whole-heartedly. Adunaic (stupid campus computers... I want my accent marks!!!) actually was supposed to have more influence on Westron than Sindarin did, in fact. By the fall of Numenor, it was so integral to matters of Middle-earth politics that it spread like wildfire. Gimli's name actually has more roots in Adunaic than it does in any other language. Not only that, but Adunaic is just cool! WIsh there was enough of it to actually learn, but alas... ^_^ Bado na siidh. Berz.

 

 

Re: Haradrim, Haradric, Haradaic...

Harad has its origins as a Numenorean-led settlement, like Gondor, but under the control of the "bad guys" ie the King's Men, who abandoned Sindarin for Adûnaic at the end. This is a surprise, Liz. While I think it is likely that the harbor community at Umbar started thus, I always interpreted the (sparse) textual evidence to mean that the Haradrim were an existing people, who, beginning in the Second Age, had a lot of contact -- mostly along their seacoasts -- with the (Black) Númenóreans. Granted, there was much admixing after that, but I always thought they existed (and had their own language) before the Númenóreans arrived. This is my primary reason for believing thus (emphasis mine): And Sauron gathered to him great strength of his servants out of the east and the south; and among them were not a few of the high race of Númenor. For in the days of the sojourn of Sauron in that land the hearts of well nigh all its people had been turned towards darkness. Therefore many of those who sailed east in that time and made fortresses and dwellings upon the coasts were already bent to his will, and they served him still gladly in Middle-earth. But because of the power of Gil-galad these renegades, lords both mighty and evil, for the most part took up their abodes in the southlands far away; yet two there were, Herumor and Fuinur, who rose to power among the Haradrim, a great and cruel people that dwelt in the wide lands south of Mordor beyond the mouths of Anduin. The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age Though this paragraph dwells mostly on the Númenóreans, the Haradrim do seem to be referred to as a separate race. I think your theory certainly does apply to Umbar: The great cape and land-locked firth of Umbar had been Númenórean land since days of old; but it was a stronghold of the King's Men, who were afterwards called the Black Númenoreans, corrupted by Sauron, and who hated above all the followers of Elendil. After the fall of Sauron their race swiftly dwindled or became merged with the Men of Middle-earth, but they inherited without lessening their hatred of Gondor. The Return of the King, LoTR Appendix A, Annals of the Kings and Rulers: Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion, Note 1 And there is this: The sons of [Castamir] and others of his kin, having fled from Gondor in 1447, set up a small kingdom in Umbar, and there made a fortified haven. They never ceased to make war upon Gondor, attacking its ships and coasts when they had opportunity. But they married women of the Harad and had in three generations lost most of their Numenorean blood.... The Peoples of Middle-Earth, HoME Vol 12, Part 1, Ch 7, The Heirs of Elendil If the Haradrim were Númenórean in origin, I don't think those last two quotes would have placed such an emphasis upon the mixture of their blood. Granted, in the second case the sons' descendants would not have much royal blood, but it would still be Númenórean. Am I missing something else? - Barbara

 

 

Re: Haradrim, Haradric, Haradaic...

Gimli's name actually has more roots in Adunaic than it does in any other language. Actually, I think that it's more accurate to say that both Adûnaic and Gimli's name have common roots. The name "Gimli" is an "outer name", one made up for use among Men, because Dwarves do not reveal their Khuzdul names to outsiders. The Longbeard Dwarves (Gimli's clan) had a lot of contact with the Northmen of Rhovanion during the Second Age, so the "outer names" were derived from the Northmen's languages to facilitate communication and trade between the two peoples. The Northmen of Rhovanion were from the same peoples who migrated on to Beleriand in the First Age and became known as the Edain; in particular, most of the Northmen were related to those who became known as the House of Hador. So, the languages of the Northmen, from which Dwarven outer names are derived, had the same roots as the languages of the Edain, who later migrated to Númenor and created Adûnaic. HTH! - Barbara

 

 

Re: Haradrim, Haradric, Haradaic...

Hi Barbara Am I missing something else? The words "Numenorean-led settlement, like Gondor" in my answer, perhaps? My understanding is that the Haradrim were very much like the Gondorians i.e. they were mainly an "indigenous" people who had Numenorean culture (including the use of Adunaic/Westron) imposed on them by a Numenorean elite. I know I read a lot of stuff when I was researching the Adunaic and Westron entries which suggested that the Numenoreans occupied great swathes of coast, not just the areas the Elf-friends colonised after the Downfall. However, the clearest quote I've found is this one: [Second Age] 2000-3000. The Numenoreans now make permanent dwellings on the shores of Middle-earth, seeking wealth and dominion; they build many havens and fortresses. The Elf-friends go chiefly to the North-west, but their strongest place is at Pelargir above the Mouths of Anduin. The King's Folk establish lordships in Umbar (12) and Harad and in many other places on the coasts of the Great Lands. The Peoples of Middle-Earth, HoME Vol 12, Part 1, Ch 6, The Tale of Years of the Second Age Perhaps I'm reading too much into the quotes in the Westron entry, but I see Harad (being on the coast, having dealings with Numenor) as being one of the places where the Common Speech would be adopted. I think it would have superseded the original tongue, as it did in the coastal regions of the North-West, except where it incorporated some dialect words, such as mumak: you'd need a local word for something the Numenoreans didn't have back home. Does that help? I'm certainly sorry if I gave the impression I thought the Haradrim were pure Numenoreans - that wasn't what I intended at all! Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Haradrim, Haradric, Haradaic...

The words "Numenorean-led settlement, like Gondor" in my answer, perhaps? Urp, splutter, gurgle, eep Um, sorry for being so hasty... most unbecoming for an Ent (which I wish I was at this point -- they aren't flexible enough to put their foot in their mouths...) My understanding is that the Haradrim were very much like the Gondorians i.e. they were mainly an "indigenous" people who had Numenorean culture (including the use of Adunaic/Westron) imposed on them by a Numenorean elite. Agreed. Absolutely. I think it would have superseded the original tongue, as it did in the coastal regions of the North-West, Not so sure about that -- Harad is such a huge place -- I tend to see the coastal areas as being impacted the most by the Númenórean presence (including the language); I think it's possible that some of the more remote inland kings of the Haradrim would not necessarily welcome such overwhelming outside influence. My preconception of desert-dwelling peoples is that they are fiercely independent. So, even though Westron probably superseded the native tongue on the coasts, I still see it as a second language for people like traders and diplomats in the farther inland fiefdoms. Partly, I'm basing my opinion upon the feeling that the Haradrim seemed extremely foreign and "other-worldly" to the Gondorians (and Gollum) at the time of the Ring War... I'm not sure that anyone that speaks the same language as you do (though they be foes and dress funny) ever seems quite that exotic... But this is entirely speculation on my part. except where it incorporated some dialect words, such as mumak: you'd need a local word for something the Numenoreans didn't have back home. *Snort* Well, Tolkien didn't come right out and say that there weren't mûmakil in Númenor (just kidding... ) Does that help? I'm certainly sorry if I gave the impression I thought the Haradrim were pure Numenoreans - that wasn't what I intended at all! No, Liz, I'm the one who is sorry for misinterpreting your words. - Barbara

 

 

Re: Haradrim, Haradric, Haradaic...

Urp, splutter, gurgle, eep Um, sorry for being so hasty... *pats Barbara on back and makes soothing noises* There, there, it's all right - I wasn't exactly blindingly clear in the first place either. Just because I've spent the last month up to my ears in Gondorian, Numenorean and Haradrim history doesn't mean everyone else intuitively knows what I now know. I think it's possible that some of the more remote inland kings of the Haradrim would not necessarily welcome such overwhelming outside influence. Agreed - we certainly do know that the further East you go in Middle-earth, the less people speak Westron. I guess with the combination of Harad having been under Gondor's control near the start of the Third Age, and because I see the overlords/High Kings of Harad as being based on the coasts, I see the official language of Harad being Westron. But that's pure speculation on my part. Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Haradrim, Haradric, Haradaic...

Just because I've spent the last month up to my ears in Gondorian, Numenorean and Haradrim history doesn't mean everyone else intuitively knows what I now know. *Very, very, very big grin...* - Barbara

 

 

Wow! So many answers!

Thank you Liz, Barbara, and Berz for covering (what I thought were) my two "simple" questions. Allie

 

 

Re: Wow! So many answers!

LOL! Linguistic questions are never simple when the story was written by a linguist! ^_^ Berz.

 

 

Re: Haradrim, Haradric, Haradaic...

I believe the (adjectival ) form would be "Haradren" ie "southern" in both cases, by analogy with "rhunen" for "eastern", for instance, which is in the "Etymologies" in HoME V "The Lost Road". Similarly, the Sindarin for "Elvish", their name for their own language was "Edhellen".

Anna Wing

 

 

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