Elena Tiriel
Message:
41097
04 May 05 3:23 PM
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41074
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Harad has its origins as a Numenorean-led settlement, like Gondor, but under the control of the "bad guys" ie the King's Men, who abandoned Sindarin for Adûnaic at the end.
This is a surprise, Liz. While I think it is likely that the harbor community at
Umbar started thus, I always interpreted the (sparse) textual evidence to mean that the Haradrim were an existing people, who, beginning in the Second Age, had a lot of contact -- mostly along their seacoasts -- with the (Black) Númenóreans. Granted, there was much admixing after that, but I always thought they existed (and had their own language) before the Númenóreans arrived.
This is my primary reason for believing thus (emphasis mine):
And Sauron gathered to him great strength of his servants out of the east and the south; and
among them were not a few of the high race of Númenor. For in the days of the sojourn of Sauron in that land the hearts of well nigh all its people had been turned towards darkness. Therefore many of those who sailed east in that time and made fortresses and dwellings
upon the coasts were already bent to his will, and they served him still gladly in Middle-earth. But because of the power of Gil-galad these renegades, lords both mighty and evil, for the most part took up their abodes in the southlands far away; yet two there were, Herumor and Fuinur, who rose to power
among the Haradrim, a great and cruel people that dwelt in the wide lands south of Mordor beyond the mouths of Anduin.
The Silmarillion,
Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
Though this paragraph dwells mostly on the Númenóreans, the Haradrim do seem to be referred to as a separate race.
I think your theory certainly does apply to Umbar:
The great cape and land-locked firth of Umbar had been Númenórean land since days of old; but it was a stronghold of the King's Men, who were afterwards called the Black Númenoreans, corrupted by Sauron, and who hated above all the followers of Elendil. After the fall of Sauron their race swiftly dwindled or became merged with the Men of Middle-earth, but they inherited without lessening their hatred of Gondor.
The Return of the King, LoTR Appendix A,
Annals of the Kings and Rulers: Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion, Note 1
And there is this:
The sons of [Castamir] and others of his kin, having fled from Gondor in 1447, set up a small kingdom in Umbar, and there made a fortified haven. They never ceased to make war upon Gondor, attacking its ships and coasts when they had opportunity. But they married women of the Harad and had in three generations lost most of their Numenorean blood....
The Peoples of Middle-Earth, HoME Vol 12, Part 1, Ch 7,
The Heirs of Elendil
If the Haradrim were Númenórean in origin, I don't think those last two quotes would have placed such an emphasis upon the mixture of their blood. Granted, in the second case the sons' descendants would not have much
royal blood, but it would still be Númenórean.
Am I missing something else?
- Barbara
There was one more idea I wanted to raise: I don't think the Haradrim spoke an entirely separate language of their own. This is extrapolating from the sources rather than anything Tolkien specifically wrote, but I think they would speak a dialect of or descendent Adûnaic. Harad has its origins as a Numenorean-led settlement, like Gondor, but under the control of the "bad guys" ie the King's Men, who abandoned Sindarin for Adûnaic at the end. Of course, after 3000 [Edit: not enough coffee yet] years, the language would probably be somewhat "corrupted". The Haradrim would also (and maybe only) speak a variant Westron or Common Speech, with some dialect words.
HTH
Cheers, Liz
My understanding is that the Haradrim were very much like the Gondorians i.e. they were mainly an "indigenous" people who had Numenorean culture (including the use of Adunaic/Westron) imposed on them by a Numenorean elite.
I know I read a lot of stuff when I was researching the Adunaic and Westron entries which suggested that the Numenoreans occupied great swathes of coast, not just the areas the Elf-friends colonised after the Downfall. However, the clearest quote I've found is this one:
[Second Age] 2000-3000. The Numenoreans now make permanent dwellings on the shores of Middle-earth, seeking wealth and dominion; they build many havens and fortresses. The Elf-friends go chiefly to the North-west, but their strongest place is at Pelargir above the Mouths of Anduin. The King's Folk establish lordships in Umbar (12) and Harad and in many other places on the coasts of the Great Lands.
The Peoples of Middle-Earth, HoME Vol 12, Part 1, Ch 6, The Tale of Years of the Second Age
Perhaps I'm reading too much into the quotes in the Westron entry, but I see Harad (being on the coast, having dealings with Numenor) as being one of the places where the Common Speech would be adopted. I think it would have superseded the original tongue, as it did in the coastal regions of the North-West, except where it incorporated some dialect words, such as mumak: you'd need a local word for something the Numenoreans didn't have back home.
Does that help? I'm certainly sorry if I gave the impression I thought the Haradrim were pure Numenoreans - that wasn't what I intended at all!
Cheers, Liz
Um, sorry for being so hasty... most unbecoming for an Ent (which I wish I was at this point -- they aren't flexible enough to put their foot in their mouths...)
My understanding is that the Haradrim were very much like the Gondorians i.e. they were mainly an "indigenous" people who had Numenorean culture (including the use of Adunaic/Westron) imposed on them by a Numenorean elite.
Agreed. Absolutely.
I think it would have superseded the original tongue, as it did in the coastal regions of the North-West,
Not so sure about that -- Harad is such a huge place -- I tend to see the coastal areas as being impacted the most by the Númenórean presence (including the language); I think it's possible that some of the more remote inland kings of the Haradrim would not necessarily welcome such overwhelming outside influence. My preconception of desert-dwelling peoples is that they are fiercely independent. So, even though Westron probably superseded the native tongue on the coasts, I still see it as a second language for people like traders and diplomats in the farther inland fiefdoms.
Partly, I'm basing my opinion upon the feeling that the Haradrim seemed extremely foreign and "other-worldly" to the Gondorians (and Gollum) at the time of the Ring War... I'm not sure that anyone that speaks the same language as you do (though they be foes and dress funny) ever seems quite that exotic...
But this is entirely speculation on my part.
except where it incorporated some dialect words, such as mumak: you'd need a local word for something the Numenoreans didn't have back home.
*Snort* Well, Tolkien didn't come right out and say that there weren't mûmakil in Númenor (just kidding... 
I think it's possible that some of the more remote inland kings of the Haradrim would not necessarily welcome such overwhelming outside influence.
Agreed - we certainly do know that the further East you go in Middle-earth, the less people speak Westron. I guess with the combination of Harad having been under Gondor's control near the start of the Third Age, and because I see the overlords/High Kings of Harad as being based on the coasts, I see the official language of Harad being Westron. But that's pure speculation on my part.
Cheers, Liz
- Barbara
