Henneth Annûn Story Archive

Hey, that rhymes! I'm going to keep saying it, for fun. Ok, I'm having trouble sussing this out from UT. Would Grimbold be in Theodred's eored, or is he the captain of another eored entirely? If the latter, do we know a name of anyone in Theodred's eored? I'm kind of skewing way movie!verse in this story anyhow - so in that case, would Grimbold or Elfhelm be acceptable? Thanks!

 

Hi Edoraslass I think Grimbold is leading a different éored. In the chapter on the Battles of the Fords of Isen in UT it says (with much snipping):

Théodred [...] passed over [the Fords of Isen] with the main strength of his cavalry: eight companies and a company of archers [...] Théodred in the leading éored was brought to a stand and almost surrounded [...] He was extricated by the onset of the companies coming up behind him [...] He at once ordered a retreat. [...] the retreat was often delayed, when the rearguard under Grimbold was obliged to turn at bay and drive back the most eager of then-pursuers.

In a force of 8 companies plus archers (which is around 1000 men) , I would expect the rearguard (led by Grimbold) to be a separate company from the vanguard company led by Théodred, not simply the rearguard of Théodred's company. Given Grimbold is given control of the troops by Erkenbrand once Théodred is dead, he does seem to have been Théodred's second-in-command, assuming there's no other commander that Tolkien didn't tell us about who got killed. The rearguard company would both be the next in importance (it's a critical job!) and also means you're least likely to lose both commander and second-in-command in quick succession in the way you would if they were both in the same company. Elfhelm is most definitely in a different company - he leads the 4 companies who arrive in response to Théodred's summons after the first battle, and who fight in the second battle. There are two other names you could use of men we know are at the battle who could plausibly have been in Théodred's éored: Ceorl, the errand-rider who brought news of the Second Battle to Théoden as he rode to Helm's deep and Dúnhere (who is Lord of Harrowdale and Erkenbrand's nephew) who was put in charge of half an éored by Grimbold towards the end of the Second Battle. HTH. I expect Barbara will have more to say later, being the true "Invasion of Westfold" expert. Cheers, Liz

 

I would expect the rearguard (led by Grimbold) to be a separate company from the vanguard company led by Théodred, not simply the rearguard of Théodred's company. I was kinda thinking that way, too, but I can never decide how the éoreds actually work, in terms of organization, when Riders are just doing their normal patrol-y business . Elfhelm is most definitely in a different company - he leads the 4 companies who arrive in response to Théodred's summons after the first battle, and who fight in the second battle This is where I get confused - with the use of the word "company" and éored. It seems as if several companies would make up an éored,just that all of them would not necessarily with the company Théodred leads on normal patrols. Which could make Elfhelm and Grimbold both technically in Theodred's éored, but that their companies would not necessarily be physically with Theodred's. I can't remember how it goes - is it battalion, platoon, company? Like the éored. would be a battalion, and on down from there? Seems like there are other designations in there, too, though. I should ask my ex-Army brother... Wow, I totally got off track there. All I really need is a name, and for my purposes, Dúnhere wouldn't work. Movie!verse seems to imply that, Théodred and Eomer both are based out of Edoras, and I am sliding movie!verse in a big way. BUT Ceorl certainly could! This is the stuff I think up at ungodly hours of the night. Thanks, Liz! If you are in any way Nuzgul-ed by this post, it is not my fault. This is my standard disclaimer when I ask questions from now on.

 

Hi EdorasLass I was kinda thinking that way, too, but I can never decide how the éoreds actually work, in terms of organization, when Riders are just doing their normal patrol-y business . This is explained in Note 36 in the section on Cirion and Eorl:

According to a note on the ordering of the Rohirrim, the éored "had no precisely fixed number, but in Rohan it was only applied to Riders, fully trained for war: men serving for a term, or in some cases permanently, in the King's Host. Any considerable body of such men, riding as a unit in exercise or on service, was called an éored. But after the recovery of the Rohirrim and the reorganization of their forces in the days of King Folcwine, a hundred years before the War of the Ring, a 'full éored' in battle order was reckoned to contain not less than 120 men (including the Captain), and to be one hundredth part of the Full Muster of the Riders of the Mark, not including those of the King's Household.

This is where I get confused - with the use of the word "company" and éored. It seems as if several companies would make up an éored Hmm, my understanding is that Tolkien used the words éored and company interchangeably. See for example Appendix (i) to the section of the Battle of the Fords of Isen where it says

Éomer remained in this position, riding with the King (as commander of the leading éored, the King's Company)

But I could be wrong about that. Anyway, I'm glad I helped you find a suitable name! Cheers, Liz

 

Hmm, my understanding is that Tolkien used the words éored and company interchangeably. See for example Appendix (i) to the section of the Battle of the Fords of Isen where it says.. But... but....why woud he do that? Wasn't he in the military? They don't just call all groups a "company"! Didn't he know what kind of havoc that was going to wreak with me and my shrieking semantic pickiness to not differentiate between "company" and "éored"?! I need to compartmentalize! I need specificity! ack! Any considerable body of such men, riding as a unit in exercise or on service, was called an éored. But after the recovery of the Rohirrim and the reorganization of their forces in the days of King Folcwine, a hundred years before the War of the Ring, a 'full éored' in battle order was reckoned to contain not less than 120 men (including the Captain), and to be one hundredth part of the Full Muster of the Riders of the Mark This makes it much clearer, sorta. So even it was just like 30 guys out playing battle-games, that was technically an éored, yes? Though not a "full" éored. This is all for probably less than FOUR PARAGRAPHS, you know that? g Thanks, lady!

 

I just bought a book about the history of birth in Europe to find out when men were still present for the delivery and which positions demand the presence of a man. OK. That book was cheap. (It's also completely icky.) And maybe I won't use it at all. So don't worry about your four paragraphs. (Should I mention that other book here? About the political powers of queens in the Middle Ages? ...okay, I might still need that for my studies... but you know why I bought it in the the first place... *sigh*) Cheers! Juno (who is grateful that she has not to write Éored...)

 

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