Forum: Research Questions

Discussing: Re-embodied elves

Re-embodied elves

I am looking for anything Tolkien said on whether the re-embodied could die a second time, and if so, would they go back to the Halls of Mandos?

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Re-embodied elves

I believe he raises the question in Laws and Customs of the Eldar in 'Morgoth's Ring'.... Ah, yes, here it is: 'The Eldar say that more than one rebirth is seldom recorded.' This seems reasonable since the re-embodied remain in Aman where they are protected from violence if not from unhappiness and grief. Tolkien suggests that anybody who dies twice may not want to return to life. At least few are allowed to do so.

But certainly the Fea would go back to Mandos after a second death, unless it refused to obey his summons, there's really nowhere else for an Elven Fea to go, bound as it is within the Circles of the World.

 

 

Re: Re-embodied elves

'The Eldar say that more than one rebirth is seldom recorded.' This seems reasonable since the re-embodied remain in Aman where they are protected from violence if not from unhappiness and grief. Tolkien suggests that anybody who dies twice may not want to return to life. At least few are allowed to do so.

Thanks, Morwen, I'll read it over. I'm wondering what would happen to Glorfindel, who was sent back to M-e, if he died again. Of course, with the enhanced abilities of a re-embodied elf, I wasn't sure that he could be killed again.

But certainly the Fea would go back to Mandos after a second death, unless it refused to obey his summons, there's really nowhere else for an Elven Fea to go, bound as it is within the Circles of the World.
Of course, ::smacks self on head::

Thanks for the information!

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Re-embodied elves

Glorfindel is of course a special case, not only re-embodied but sent back to Middle Earth as an Emissary of the Valar, his particular mission seems to have been to help the Elves in their war against Sauron. Had he been killed in the line of duty his stay in the Halls might very well have been severely curtailed. Certainly there would have been no difficulty about giving him yet a third body - though I misdoubt he would have been returned to Middle Earth the way Gandalf was.

 

 

Re: Re-embodied elves

Of course, with the enhanced abilities of a re-embodied elf...

This is a bit that I haven't heard before, and might have an influence on the story that Millikov and I are collaborating on. What sort of enhanced abilities would a returner have?

-Aerlinnel

 

 

Re: Re-embodied elves


Of course, with the enhanced abilities of a re-embodied elf...

This is a bit that I haven't heard before, and might have an influence on the story that Millikov and I are collaborating on. What sort of enhanced abilities would a returner have?


In Laws and Customs among the Eldar from Morgoth's Ring:
"...while the Re-born are stronger, having greater mastery of their bodies..."

Also in Morgoth's Ring, Arthrabeth, Appendix: "Memory by a fea of experience is evidently powerful, vivid, and complete. So the underlying conception is that 'matter' will be taken up into 'spirit', by becoming part of its knowledge [emphasis in original] - and so rendered timeless and under the spirit's command. ...But while it could pass physical barriers at will, it could at will oppose a barrier to matter. if you touched a resurrected body you felt it. Or if it willed it could simply elude you - disappear. Its position in space was at will."

As Morwen points out, Glorfindel is a special case and goes even beyond this. In Peoples of Middle-earth, Last Writings:
"For long years he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Mair. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice."

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Re-embodied elves

Glorfindel is of course a special case, not only re-embodied but sent back to Middle Earth as an Emissary of the Valar, his particular mission seems to have been to help the Elves in their war against Sauron. Had he been killed in the line of duty his stay in the Halls might very well have been severely curtailed. Certainly there would have been no difficulty about giving him yet a third body - though I misdoubt he would have been returned to Middle Earth the way Gandalf was.

I can just picture the scene in Mandos, as suggested by another fan in another forum...

Mandos: Oh, you're back...
Glorfindel: Well, yes, you see...there was, um, this little unpleasantness with a Balrog and, well....
Mandos: (sighs) Let me guess, you want a new body?
Glorfindel: Yes.
Mandos: What, do you think we have a a separate storeroom filled with boxes of new bodies labeled "For Glorfindel's Use?"

 

 

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