Henneth Annûn Story Archive

This is a continuation of this thread. Liz and Lyllyn, would you mind renaming your threads to show that they are not current? I renamed the first one to "Resource Admin Discussions - Thread 1 (old)", but will change it if you think up something better... - Barbara Edit: I think Thread 2 is Liz's and Thread 3 is Lyllyn's...

 

Lyllyn, I see you're already changing over the Númenórean genealogical titles as you make other changes... Way to go! Was there a reason you used "Tar-Amandil born in Númenor" instead of "Tar-Amandil of Númenor born"? I presume that all the kings of Númenor were born in Númenor -- oh, wait, except for Elros! I guess he counts... - Barbara

 

Liz and Lyllyn, would you mind renaming your threads to show that they are not current? Thread 2 renamed. Was there a reason you used "Tar-Amandil born in Númenor" instead of "Tar-Amandil of Númenor born"? I presume that all the kings of Númenor were born in Númenor -- oh, wait, except for Elros! I guess he counts... Random thought - as Númenor didn't even exist when Elros was born, it seems to me it wouldn't be appropriate to title the event for his bitrh as "Elros of Númenor born". Not that we actually have an event for Elros' birth yet, by the looks of it.... *Hastily kicks out at nuzgul wearing "Home 11 WoJ Chronologies" collar in an attempt to deflect it* Cheers, Liz

 

I see you're already changing over the Númenórean genealogical titles as you make other changes... Way to go! Was there a reason you used "Tar-Amandil born in Númenor" instead of "Tar-Amandil of Númenor born"? Sorry, I wasn't remembering the standard form - I just added the words to the end without thinking. Good that you got me before I did any others. And looking at these, I realized that some of the name translations are not as good as they should be! Argh! Edit thread 3 renamed! Lyllyn

 

Thread 2 renamed. Thanks! Random thought - as Númenor didn't even exist when Elros was born, it seems to me it wouldn't be appropriate to title the event for his bitrh as "Elros of Númenor born". Agreed! I was envisioning the "X of Y born" format as being appropriate for those who were heirs of the ruling line of Y. So, "Théodred of Rohan" or "Boromir of Gondor", even though they never acceded, but "Aragorn II of the Dúnedain" and "Eorl of the Éothéod", even though they later acceded to other thrones. We might possibly say "Elros born in Sirion" whenever we succumb to that particular nuzgûl... (it'll have to wait its turn in line like all the others...) - Barbara

 

Sorry, I wasn't remembering the standard form - I just added the words to the end without thinking. Good that you got me before I did any others. n/p... I figured you'd want a heads-up before doing any more... And looking at these, I realized that some of the name translations are not as good as they should be! Argh! *Pats Lyllyn on the shoulder* There, there... fortunately, we have each others' shoulder to cry on... Edit thread 3 renamed! Thanks! - Barbara

 

Dammit, I am taking these mithril ankle guards back to the shop and demanding a refund.... That "Home 11 WoJ Chronologies" nuzgul bit and I have very foolishly told Lyllyn I will try and put together a "definitive chronology" for the First Age which we can then use as the basis of a to-do list for First Age events. (Why do I do these things to myself?) Anyway, my plan is to : 1) Try and synthesis the different chronologies in Home 11 into a single chronology covering all events, working according to the Hierarchy of Sources 2) Make sure the synthesised chronology fits with events in the published Silm. The account in the Silm takes precedence. (For example, The Ruin of Doriath is a particularly nasty tangle that we have largely sorted out, but is a good example of the chronologies and the Silm account conflicting badly and the need to fudge the chronology dates to match the Silm account.) 3) Put the draft chronology into a HASA story for feedback and corrections. Silm fans who know the detail of the Silm better than I do will be especially welcome to comment on where the chronology doesn't mesh with the Silm. 4) Use the agreed chronology (which will still be subject to revision if necessary) as a mix of reference and to-do list for any researchers who want to add First Age events. Any suggestions for ways to improve this plan are most welcome. And it would be appreciated if you could keep any cackling at my misfortune to a minimum. Cheers, Liz

 

And it would be appreciated if you could keep any cackling at my misfortune to a minimum. Okay, if you insist *snickmmmmmmpff* - Barbara

 

Speaking of the Hierarchy of Sources post (which Liz was, but I can't mention it because her post sent me into hysterics), I was thinking of renaming that thread from Useful Tools & Templates to something like "Best Practices in Resources", since it seems to be developing that way... What do you think? - Barbara, who is not cackling. Not in the least.

 

Barbara, who is not cackling. Not in the least. So, when you've stopped cackling and having hysterics, did you actually have any useful comments to welcome a fellow-suffer (oh cataloguer of genealogies and battles)? I was thinking of renaming that thread from Useful Tools & Templates to something like "Best Practices in Resources Perhaps something more like "Suggested Best Practices in Resources" or "Preferred Practices in Resources". I think it sounds slightly less likely we're going to come along with an orc-whip and beat up researchers who don't comply. (Of course, we are, but they don't need to know that.) Cheers, Liz

 

Hi, Per Liz's suggestion, I renamed the Useful Tools & Templates thread to "Preferred Practices in Resources (formerly Useful Tools & Templates)"... I plan to remove the "(formerly ...)" part in a couple of weeks, after we have a chance to get used to the new name. Also, I added the description of the contents of each section to the Template - Bio Entry for a Race; you will have to remove the text and replace it with your quotes, but the template and its description are now in the same place. Thanks to Lyllyn for the suggestion. - Barbara

 

So, when you've stopped cackling and having hysterics, did you actually have any useful comments to welcome a fellow-suffer (oh cataloguer of genealogies and battles)? Sorry, I didn't intend to be mean... I was just... rather... um, surprised by the scope of your proposal... Edit: Translation: I'm still in shock... If you had asked me before committing to this, I would have said: pick one event, figure out the date, put it in a spreadsheet, then pick another event... That's how I did the genealogies, one family at a time. I had *no idea* whatsoever when I began that it would spread beyond the House of Finwë... no intention of doing any other races... basically, no clue what I was getting myself into. (And, for me, it was probably best that way...) This is how I would approach your project, which is particular to my style of working with spreadsheets, so might not be at all helpful to you: First, start with the few events that have dates from the Silmarillion. List them in a spreadsheet, date in one column, event(s) in the next column, sorted by date. Then, do the same (in another spreadsheet) with the many events from WoJ (or maybe just the events that are also mentioned in the Silm spreadsheet), again, sorted by date. Now display the two spreadsheets side-by-side. First, just insert blank lines between the entries in each spreadsheet so that the same events line up side-by-side, but you have kept the relative sequence in both sheets. Where you can't do that (the order of two events was swapped from WoJ to the Silm), copy an event entry from the WoJ spreadsheet, insert it in the spot corresponding with the Silm location (but still in the WoJ spreadsheet), and then use a different color on *both* copies of the WoJ event: a "moved from" color and a "moved to" color, so it is obvious when you look at the WoJ sheet which events have been rearranged. I think it would be easier to merge the many events from the WoJ around the few from the Silm, than to fit the few into the many, if that makes any sense. (That's because you want to keep the Silm chronology unchanged.) Then, just merge the two lists... You might want to add another column, which is the "final" date, whether it be from Silm or WoJ. Um, I didn't promise it would be an easy process... but that's how I'd do it. Perhaps something more like "Suggested Best Practices in Resources" or "Preferred Practices in Resources". Okay, I like "Preferred Practices in Resources." I think it sounds slightly less likely we're going to come along with an orc-whip and beat up researchers who don't comply. (Of course, we are, but they don't need to know that.) I prefer to think of it as gently nudging... - Barbara

 

Hi Barbara I was just... rather... um, surprised by the scope of your proposal... Edit: Translation: I'm still in shock... I'm just doing the chronology, you know, not offering to do all the event entries! And it will be so very useful for other researchers to see what needs doing and not have to fight through sorting all the dates out themselves before they can do an entry... I'm sure it will be very, ahem, encouraging.... I suspect the difficulties of dating events is one of the reasons why we have so few Pre-Trees/Trees/First Age events. My little flurry of activity about the Ruin of Doriath represents a fifth of all the First Age Events we have, so someone certainly needs to do some. (Of course, this means I've now found another way to put off doing the MotWM entries...) Thanks for the suggestions about the chronologies project. They're really helpful. I think I'll have to try a few different approaches and see what works best for me, but your notion of fixing the few Silm dates we have and shuffling stuff around in spreadsheets is a good one. By the way, do you have many Trees/First Age dates in your genealogies? Having discovered that there are birth dates in Valinor for a lot of the Silm Elves, I guess I ought to co-ordinate with you to make sure we're thinking alike where the two projects overlap. Cheers, Liz

 

I'm just doing the chronology, you know, not offering to do all the event entries! Yes, I understood that... and I still think it's an ambitious undertaking! An extremely valuable one, too, in case I didn't mention that before. And it will be so very useful for other researchers to see what needs doing and not have to fight through sorting all the dates out themselves before they can do an entry... I'm sure it will be very, ahem, encouraging.... *Stares at the ceiling and whistles, hands in pockets...* (Of course, this means I've now found another way to put off doing the MotWM entries...) Like I keep putting off the Rohirrim entry, 'cause I want to finish another invasion first? Trust me, I understand... Thanks for the suggestions about the chronologies project. They're really helpful. Oh, good! *Big sigh of relief* I'm glad my ramblings made some sense... By the way, do you have many Trees/First Age dates in your genealogies? No, I just put "Time of the Trees" for most of the Elves... even that was often a (hopefully reasonable) guess... Having discovered that there are birth dates in Valinor for a lot of the Silm Elves There ARE? I didn't know that! (Maybe I should actually take a close look at the WoJ someday... I presume that's where you found them?) Woohoo! I guess I ought to co-ordinate with you to make sure we're thinking alike where the two projects overlap. I have very few birthdates for Elves. I would be most happy to steal them off your chronology when it's done. I'm going to have to go through the Genealogies and make them consistent with the Resource Library (and your Chronology) before we publish them anyway. I'd like to coordinate not only dates, but also event (battle) names... - Barbara

 

Hi Barbara Having discovered that there are birth dates in Valinor for a lot of the Silm Elves There ARE? I didn't know that! (Maybe I should actually take a close look at the WoJ someday... I presume that's where you found them?) Woohoo! Actually, you probably want the Annals of Aman in Home 10 (Morgoth's Ring) - but I definitely spotted birthdates for Feanor and Galadriel, amongst others, in there somewhere. I'm going to have to go through the Genealogies and make them consistent with the Resource Library (and your Chronology) before we publish them anyway. I'd like to coordinate not only dates, but also event (battle) names... Yes - co-ordination is good. I'm still working out quite what I'm doing, but there may be a number of high-level events/event groups (equivalent to the Battle of the Pelennor) that will need "sub events", as well as very specific events such as "Feanor born in Tirion". Cheers, Liz

 

Lyllyn, I was watching a TV thing on the Presidents tonight, and started to work on the Númenóreans... anyway, I think I finished changing the titles (and added the deaths of Tar-Míriel and Ar-Pharazôn, which you are welcome to change if you wish)... Would you please look them over, and make sure I didn't make any Queens into Kings or vice versa? - Barbara

 

Just a quick (and somewhat OT) note: Due to RL issues (aka The New Job I've Been Waiting For More Than A Year), I won't have much time in the near future to keep up with the Resource Admin stuff. I still have Resource Admin status, but I neither mind keeping it nor resigning from it, so just do what proves least of a hazzle. If there is something important (like a grave mistake in the one research entry I composed ) that you want to let me know, please contact me at fliewatuet@gmx.net. Cheers fliewatuet

 

Lyllyn, I was watching a TV thing on the Presidents tonight, and started to work on the Númenóreans... anyway, I think I finished changing the titles (and added the deaths of Tar-Míriel and Ar-Pharazôn, which you are welcome to change if you wish)... Would you please look them over, and make sure I didn't make any Queens into Kings or vice versa? Edit Just as I expected, everything looks great! (Of what you did, but I can see some of the original entries will need changes. For instance, I'll need to separate Tar-Vanimeldë, Queen of Númenor, dies; Herucalmo usurps the sceptre Lyllyn

 

Due to RL issues (aka The New Job I've Been Waiting For More Than A Year), I won't have much time in the near future to keep up with the Resource Admin stuff. Congratulations on the job fliewatuet! There is no problem either way, so I will leave you with resource access, and you can see how you feel after things settle down. We're going to be doing work on the resources section in the last half of 2005, and we can revisit it then if necessary. Lyllyn

 

Good. Maybe things will settle and I'll have a bit more time to devote to the resource section, but right now, I hardly find the time to keep up with my email. fliewatuet

 

Just as I expected, everything looks great! Thanks! I used copy-and-paste, so my fingers wouldn't automatically type "of Rohan" instead of "of Númenor"... but I can see some of the original entries will need changes. For instance, I'll need to separate Tar-Vanimeldë, Queen of Númenor, dies; Herucalmo usurps the sceptre LOL! good idea... BTW, if you do review them: I think I saw a mention of the crown of Númenor, but I think the sceptre is how Tolkien phrased it... and there are some inconsistencies in how people are named (birth names vs royal names)... Hey! I hadn't really thought of this 'til this moment, but if we have an Other Names field in Events, it wouldn't have to be limited to things like the Great Plague vs the Dark Plague; it could also be used to include the other variant of the character name, e.g. "Crowning of King Elessar" could have "Aragorn" in the Other Names field... which would be useful for a handful of Gondorian kings and all of the Númenórean rulers. - Barbara

 

This came to my attention a while ago, but forgot to bring it up. The question being, should Boromir, son of Denethor II, really be called 'Boromir II' in our Character Bio section? Boromir never succeeded his father's position, so he was not the second Boromir of the House of Hurin to become steward. Also, neither in Appendix A nor in Peoples of Middle-earth was the first Boromir (son of Denethor I), listed as Boromir I, as he ought to be if there was another Steward Boromir. ~Loqi

 

This came to my attention a while ago, but forgot to bring it up. The question being, should Boromir, son of Denethor II, really be called 'Boromir II' in our Character Bio section? Thanks for mentioning this. I think that "Boromir II" is inaccurate for the reasons you mention... it appears that only Kings and Stewards in Gondor who have come to office use the I or II (otherwise, "our" Faramir would be "Faramir II")... Now, Hobbits seem to be a different story... Tooks, anyway. Peregrin I and Faramir I seem to be.... optimistic to me - Barbara

 

I think that "Boromir II" is inaccurate for the reasons you mention Glad you agree. Should I go change it? it appears that only Kings and Stewards in Gondor who have come to office use the I or II (otherwise, "our" Faramir would be "Faramir II")... Uhh... why would he? There wasn't another Faramir that became Steward. And Faramir did become the Ruling Steward for a few months. The only other Faramir I know is the 2nd son of King Ondoher. ~Loqi

 

Hi all, I just posted Avari (yes, I forgot to put in Links, I'm working on it) but I wanted a check on whether I've got the format you had in mind for the Elves' bios. Reminder to self - don't volunteer for this again; argument from other part of self - but now you have all these nice quotes for... Lyllyn

 

Glad you agree. Should I go change it? If you don't mind... Thank you! it appears that only Kings and Stewards in Gondor who have come to office use the I or II (otherwise, "our" Faramir would be "Faramir II")... Uhh... why would he? There wasn't another Faramir that became Steward. And Faramir did become the Ruling Steward for a few months. It was a particularly poor example... sorry! (Can't think of a good one...) The only other Faramir I know is the 2nd son of King Ondoher. Yep, that's the one I meant. I just forgot the "little" detail that he was in the line of kings, and the other one was in the line of stewards... (Hmmmm, interesting plot-bunny: depending on when Faramir died in relation to Ondoher and Artamir, he might actually have been king... for a few minutes, anyway ) - Barbara

 

Hi all, I just posted Avari ... but I wanted a check on whether I've got the format you had in mind for the Elves' bios. Yes, the format looks great, Lyllyn! I think that the Relations with Others subtitle works very well for this entry, given the relatively large number of quotes about it... Reminder to self - don't volunteer for this again; argument from other part of self - but now you have all these nice quotes for... But you do it so well, Lyllyn! - Barbara

 

Thanks for checking, Barbara! I stole the way you do subsections from your Northmen of Rhovanion entry; it's a great tool! Not to give you more work, but I'd love to see you add the method to the template. Lyllyn

 

I stole the way you do subsections from your Northmen of Rhovanion entry; it's a great tool! Not to give you more work, but I'd love to see you add the method to the template. Flattery will get you everything... - Barbara Edit: Done... see what you think. I'm a little worried that people will think they are used a lot, rather than rarely... What do you think?

 

Hi Lyllyn The Avari bio looks great. I very much like the Relations with Others subtitle too - I think that will be very useful when I (eventually) do the MotWM entries. Reminder to self - don't volunteer for this again; argument from other part of self - but now you have all these nice quotes for... And you've done such a beautiful job. I'm sure one of the other Races of Elves would benefit from your touch.... Cheers, Liz

 

Glad you agree. Should I go change it? If you don't mind... Thank you! It's done. (Hmmmm, interesting plot-bunny: depending on when Faramir died in relation to Ondoher and Artamir, he might actually have been king... for a few minutes, anyway ) Well, it's probably too late for him to know anyway... On the other hand, if Artamir was near Ondoher when he died, and he died after his father did then maybe he would be named king... ~Loqi

 

Hi all, I just posted Avari (yes, I forgot to put in Links, I'm working on it) but I wanted a check on whether I've got the format you had in mind for the Elves' bios. It looks great! I'll go change Avari's status to 'done'. Reminder to self - don't volunteer for this again; argument from other part of self - but now you have all these nice quotes for... Listen to your other part of self, Lyllyn... ~Loqi

 

It's done. Thank you! And, while I was looking up horns, I changed the Horn of Boromir II, also... On the other hand, if Artamir was near Ondoher when he died, and he died after his father did then maybe he would be named king... LOL! Yes, they were next to each other -- but I expect they were too busy fending off slaughter to stand on ceremony... The King is dead! All hail the *splat*... - Barbara

 

LOL! Yes, they were next to each other -- but I expect they were too busy fending off slaughter to stand on ceremony... The King is dead! All hail the *splat*... That just amused me too much for my own good. And just so you know, I'll be away from the computer for about a week, until next week Wednesday, due to exams. ~Loqi

 

The King is dead! All hail the *splat*... That just amused me too much for my own good. Thank you! Nobody where I used to work ever appreciated my -- unique -- sense of humor... And just so you know, I'll be away from the computer for about a week, until next week Wednesday, due to exams. 'But go now with good heart and sharpened pencils! Farewell, and may the blessing of Elves and Men and all Free Folk go with you to the exam room. May the stars shine upon your face and illuminate your mind and distract your professors as they grade your exams!' - Barbara

 

I just added Maglor's Gap. I realize the category is odd - I wasn't sure where to put it. When we revise that category to be "Valleys,gorges and passes, it will fit better, I think. If I'm missing the obvious place to put it - please suggest! Lyllyn

 

I just added Maglor's Gap. ... If I'm missing the obvious place to put it - please suggest! For what it's worth -- that's where I would have put it... - Barbara

 

I'd like an opinion on what to call this new entry: Witnesses of Manwë. I'm trying to encompass the ideas that the eagles of Númenor were Manwë's servants and observers, that they were held sacred by the Númenóreans until the Shadow subverted them, and that they were one of the signs of the coming Downfall. Unfortunately, the "Witnesses of Manwë" appellation only applies to the three eagles that guarded Meneltarma, and I'm afraid that I'm confusing the issue by widening the focus, but still using that name. Should I call this entry "The Eagles of Númenor" instead? (I thought of calling it "The Eagles of Manwë", but that also applies to the Eagles of Middle-earth, and I wanted to focus on Númenor. Any ideas? - Barbara

 

I would think Eagles of Númenor is more accurate than the others in the circumstances. Maybe Eagles of the Lords of the West as mentioned in Akallabêth might give some of the flavor you want? Lyllyn

 

I would think Eagles of Númenor is more accurate than the others in the circumstances. Thanks, Lyllyn! I knew I could count on my Resources colleagues to keep me on the straight and narrow path... Maybe Eagles of the Lords of the West as mentioned in Akallabêth might give some of the flavor you want? Yes, it's definitely more glamorous and interesting , but when I checked to see if it was used elsewhere I found this quote: "And out of the west there would come at times a great cloud in the evening, shaped as it were an eagle, with pinions spread to the north and the south; and slowly it would loom up, blotting out the sunset, and then uttermost night would fall upon Númenor. And some of the eagles bore lightning beneath their wings, and thunder echoed between sea and cloud. Then men grew afraid. 'Behold the Eagles of the Lords of the West!' they cried. 'The Eagles of Manwë are come upon Númenor!' And they fell upon their faces." The Silmarillion, Akallabêth Since I don't want to confuse "real" eagles with metaphorical ones, I'll stick with the more prosaic name... - Barbara

 

Sorry for my mistake! I deleted the post, which didn't belong here. - Barbara Edit: but since I have your attention (sorry!), I'm hoping to be spit back out by Real Life, Real Soon Now, so I might be getting back to some Resources work in the next week or two... (maybe saying it out loud will make it come true?)

 

Delighted to have you back! Lyllyn

 

Hi Barbara and Lyllyn It must be some fortuitious conjunction in the planets, because RL has released its grip a little on me too, and allowed me to get back to Resources. Remember those consolidated First-Age chronologies I talked about putting together? Well, my first pass can be found here. All feedback welcome! I'm also planning to set up a Workshop when the new Workshops section gets going where we can discuss this chronology and also other issues relating to any timeline entries in the resources library. Cheers, Liz

 

Barbara very kindly let me take the current version of her citations spreadsheet and turn it into a HASA story, Citations for Tolkien's writings, so I could make the standard citations (with the necessary HTML markup) available to the people involved in Bookverse! Trivial Pursuit. Of course, this means it's now available for anyone doing research articles, resource library entries and so on. Should I post about it in the "Preferred Practices" thread? Also, while I remember, a note to Barbara: the Races Bio template you have posted in "Preferred Practices" doesn't include links in the Table of Contents to the Etymology and Notes sections you have at the end of the template. (I'm sure it's just an editing oversight.) And, goodness, that template is making doing the Gondorians bio soooo much easier. Thank you! Cheers, Liz

 

Should I post about it in the "Preferred Practices" thread? Wow, Liz, I just took a look at the Citations story, and you did a great job! Yes, please mention it in Preferred Practices, if you haven't done so already. the Races Bio template you have posted in "Preferred Practices" doesn't include links in the Table of Contents to the Etymology and Notes sections Thanks! I'll fix that this evening... And, goodness, that template is making doing the Gondorians bio soooo much easier. Thank you! You're welcome! I'm delighted that the guides that I developed for my own use are helpful to others... - Barbara Edit: The Table of contents is now fixed in the Races Template. Thanks for the heads-up, Liz!

 

Hi folks Maybe I'm completely missing it, but are we lacking a resource library entry for The One Ring? I'm working on the Gondorians bio and some related timeline entries, and was putting in inline links and couldn't find one for the One Ring! Edit: I've also realised its sometimes called the Ruling Ring, but I can't find an entry under that either. I'm happy to create an entry (at least a fairly quick and dirty one) if we don't have one (and do we want to call it The One Ring or The Ruling Ring?). If we do have an entry, could someone please point me to it, so I can link to it. By the way, I'm also already up to 10 timeline events I need to enter to be able to construct the Gondorians bio Edit and have put these in the database Second Edit and revised the names in line with Barbara's excellent suggestions further down the thread: Siege of Barad-dûr: Overview Isildur plants a seedling of the White Tree in Minas Anor Isildur delivers Gondor to Meneldil Tarannon Falastur becomes King of Gondor The line of Ship-kings of Gondor begins Eärnil I takes Umbar Eärnil I of Gondor lost at sea Ciryandil of Gondor slain in the Siege of Umbar Ciryaher Hyarmendacil I of Gondor conquers the Harad The line of Ship-kings of Gondor ends (Barbara, I will send you a spreadsheet with these links and a few others I've used that weren't on your master spreadsheet, so you can add them.) But I'm piggybacking off all of Barbara's wonderful Kinstrife and Northmen of Rhovanion entries. Cheers, Liz

 

You're right, we don't have a One Ring entry; I think the scope of it was intimidating. But you have ever been fearless, facing down large and dangerous entries - go to it! Lyllyn

 

You're right, we don't have a One Ring entry; Phew, I'm glad I'm not going mad. I think the scope of it was intimidating. But you have ever been fearless, facing down large and dangerous entries - go to it! Well I did say "a quick and dirty" entry.... For some reason, I'm tempted to make the One Ring a bio rather than a thing, will a full timeline. For an artifact, it definitely has a personality. So should I enter it under "One Ring, The" and put "The Ruling Ring" in the Other Names field? Cheers, Liz

 

I've been a busy little bee this morning - on Liz's suggestion, I've created biographies for all the kings and chieftains of the Northern Line, adding the bare bones facts provided in "(ii) THE REALMS IN EXILE - The Northern Line - Heirs of Isildur". I'll do the southern line and the stewards at some point as well. I'm just adding the information from the genealogies; maybe this iwll provide the framework to help other people add appropriate details they find. Hope this is the right place for this comment! Marta

 

Hope this is the right place for this comment! Absolutely the right place! Great work, Marta, thanks. This points up even more something needed in the redesign - uncoupling bios from the story search character dropdown. You might wait on the others until we can change the bio/character list link so the character list doesn't get too unwieldy. Can I interest you in some other evil research work in the interval? Lyllyn

 

Can I interest you in some other evil research work in the interval? I was actually hoping Marta would do the timeline events for accession and deaths of the rules (Kings and Stewards) of Gondor, since that would mean I wouldn't have to do them in order to complete the Gondorians bio.. There's no problem waiting on the resources redesign when doing timeline events, except for the whole issue of "ordering" them within the same year (but I think we're going to have to go through and check all the entries anyway if we have any changes to how that works?) Cheers, Liz (PS: So is it "One Ring" or "Ruling Ring"?)

 

There seem to be more references to the One Ring than the Ruling Ring, so I'd vote for that as the main name. Lyllyn

 

Maybe I'm completely missing it, but are we lacking a resource library entry for The One Ring? Yes, we are. I have lots of stumbled-on quotes in a tidbits file, but haven't actually researched it yet. I'd be happy to send you my notes if you wanted to enter it -- with this ear infection, my brain is not in a working state today let's not speculate whether it ever is... Or, you could just put in a dummy entry, and I'll flesh it out sometime maybe much later. I recommend calling it "One Ring, The". I once had an idea of calling all the entries Rings of Power, as in: Rings of Power: The Elven Rings [Three Elven Rings?] Rings of Power: Vilya [Nenya, Narya] Rings of Power: The Dwarven Rings [Seven?] Rings of Power: The Mannish[?] Rings [Nine?] Rings of Power: The One Ring but it will be a while before I research them all; and, since there really isn't much about the Dwarven and Mannish rings, I might just put the general categories (Elven, etc.) under one entry for Rings of Power, which links to Vilya, Nenya, Narya, and The One Ring. BTW, the three individual Elven rings already have entries, and I just added them to the spreadsheet. - Barbara currently a stereotypical dizzy blonde -- except she's not blonde...

 

I probably should have read the rest of the thread before answering... ah, well... So should I enter it under "One Ring, The" and put "The Ruling Ring" in the Other Names field? Yes, and: Isildur's Bane The Ring of Isildur The Precious Gollum's Birthday Present The Great Ring of Power The Ruling Ring The Enemy's Ring The Ring of Rings The Peril of Men The Burden The Master-ring The Ring of Doom Or, you could leave the details to me... someday... - Barbara, who kinda likes the name The Ring of Doom herself... sounds so overly dramatic...

 

I've been a busy little bee this morning - on Liz's suggestion, I've created biographies for all the kings and chieftains of the Northern Line, adding the bare bones facts provided in "(ii) THE REALMS IN EXILE - The Northern Line - Heirs of Isildur". I'll do the southern line and the stewards at some point as well. Excellent, and thank you! Please keep track of the new links and send them to me -- just plain text is fine. That's because, if there are more than ten new entries at a time, I can't copy the links from the New Entries lists... which I try to monitor daily, but don't always remember. - Barbara

 

For some reason, I'm tempted to make the One Ring a bio rather than a thing, will a full timeline. For an artifact, it definitely has a personality. True, but there's no reason that Things entries can't have a History section... it would be applicable to any type of entry, really hmmm, except maybe Events, since they tend to focus on one small piece of a larger History My only concern might be that people might search under Things, not expecting to find it in Bios. - Barbara

 

I was actually hoping Marta would do the timeline events for accession and deaths of the rules (Kings and Stewards) of Gondor, since that would mean I wouldn't have to do them in order to complete the Gondorians bio.. Ummm, I think I did all the genealogical events for the Kings of Gondor -- let me check. (Marta is welcome to the Stewards, of course.) Oh, wait, I have NOT done the ones after Turambar, King of Gondor, Dies in 667 III and before Ciryaher Becomes King Hyarmendacil I of Gondor in 1015 III. Sorry, I was wrong... but I did finish the rest, all the way through Eldarion becomes King of Arnor and Gondor, so you don't have to check for any other "gaps". - Barbara

 

OK, "One Ring, The" it is, with all those wonderful "other names" Barbara listed. *Gathers together Barbara's many posts...* I will put together a quick-and-dirty entry for the One Ring - I think a few choice quotes from the Council of Elrond will give us a start! Then Barbara and I can fight it out for the honour of not fleshing the thing out. BTW, the three individual Elven rings already have entries, and I just added them to the spreadsheet. Yes, I noticed those when I was chasing round trying to find an entry for the One Ring. - Barbara, who kinda likes the name The Ring of Doom herself... sounds so overly dramatic... Hmm, isn't the Ring of Doom also the place the Valar sat round in uselessly er, carefully debating what to do after Morgoth and Ungoliant killed the Trees? For some reason, I'm tempted to make the One Ring a bio rather than a thing, will a full timeline. For an artifact, it definitely has a personality. True, but there's no reason that Things entries can't have a History section... Don't worry, I will put it in Things - although I can see a modified form of the bio template being quite a useful way to address the mass of information there must be on the One Ring. Oh, wait, I have NOT done the ones after Turambar, King of Gondor, Dies in 667 III and before Ciryaher Becomes King Hyarmendacil I of Gondor in 1015 III. Sorry, I was wrong... but I did finish the rest, all the way through Eldarion becomes King of Arnor and Gondor, so you don't have to check for any other "gaps". Oh, excellent! Because I was plodding through events at the start of the Third Age, I was a bit confused about why there seemed to be entries for some Gondorian rulers and not for others, and I hadn't really got to working out where the gaps were. But it would be nice to have them all completed at some point. :-) Cheers, Liz

 

I'm working on the Gondorians bio and some related timeline entries, and was putting in inline links and couldn't find one for the One Ring! These look great, Liz! It will be good to get all the different Gondor events in (speaking of which, I never finished the Battle of the Morannon, despite having added one or two associated events. I won't be getting back to it for a while, though it's on my list...) May I butt in with a few thoughts and/or suggestions on some of the event names? (That's a rhetorical question .) Siege of Barad-dûr: Overview (I'm using a capital letter for "Overview" on the battles template to make searches easier: if you search for "overview", you get a *lot* of completely unrelated entries, but if you search for "Overview", you get the major battles...) Isildur delivers Gondor to Meneldil (I guess that you're probably copying the Tale of Years in using "the South-kingdom", but I suggest standardizing on the most common proper names in event titles: "Gondor" instead of "South Kingdom" or "South-kingdom", "Pippin" instead of "Peregrin", ..., even when the Tale of Years is inconsistent; the reason is to enhance searches, and to make it easier for people who aren't familiar enough with Tolkien's works to know that the South Kingdom *is* Gondor...) Ciryandil of Gondor slain in the Siege of Umbar ("Siege of Umbar" is a battle name, so I recommend treating it as a proper noun) Ciryaher Hyarmendacil [maybe add I or II???] of Gondor conquers the Harad (Do we know any more about this battle? In general, if there is any potential for more than one entry referring to it - like if the king died in the battle, or something like that, then I would give it a battle name [e.g. Invasion of Harad by Gondor] and use that name in both the event titles. But (after looking at the entry) if that's all the information there is, then what you have is great...) Hope at least some of these make sense... - Barbara

 

Hmm, isn't the Ring of Doom also the place the Valar sat round in uselessly er, carefully debating what to do after Morgoth and Ungoliant killed the Trees? Ah, you're right -- it's that meeting place on Maxa Mahax Mahal um, Aman... imagines the Minbari meetings from the "Babylon 5" sci-fi TV series... Note to self: check that you didn't just search for "Ring" and grab every name you found without checking whether it was relevant... Don't worry, I will put it in Things - although I can see a modified form of the bio template being quite a useful way to address the mass of information there must be on the One Ring. Oh, absolutely. Yes, it did have quite a nasty personality, didn't it? (I thought PJ did a particularly good job of making the ring a character in its own right during that scene at Bag End where Gandalf was explaining the ring to Frodo... but I digress...) By the way, I sent you my tidbits file for the One Ring. - Barbara

 

(I have moved this request to the new thread, here.) - Barbara

 

This thread is now continued here.

 

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