Henneth Annûn Story Archive

Hi

Would anyone out there be willing to translate a couple of terms into Quenya , Sindarin or Adunaic? Aerlinnel was kind enough to direct me over here.

The meanings of the names are -

Star of the Moon (into Quenya)
Moonlit warrior (into Quenya)
Lore master (into Adunaic)
Silver dreamer (into Sindarin)

What would be the literal meaning of the name 'Lorissë'?

Also, is there anybody specifically comfortable with Doriathrin? I've tried Ardalambion, but cant seem to get anything beyond a few words.

Thanks!

 

One possible suggestion for "Silver Dreamer "in Sindarin might be:

_Celeb-Ôlor_.
'Celeb' - silver, 'Ôl' - dream, '-or' - an ending that seems to be used to mean "one who ..."
I believe that would be pronounced _CEL’-eb_ _Ol’-or_.

Others may have better suggestions, but I hope that helps.

As to Doriathrin, what Ardalambion has is all there is - a few words are all Tolkien ever created. If you want to make the assumption that the language discussed at Ardalambion represents an archaic form of Sindarin that was spoken in Doriath, then, it might be possible to extrapolate something approaching the Doriathrin form from the CE roots. If you specify what term you want expressed in something representing that language, I'd be willing to give it a try. It probably wouldn’t be what a true linguist would come up with, but it would hopefully be different enough from classical Sindarin and have enough flavor of Doriathrin to be satisfactory.

Ithildin

 

Star of the Moon -- Él Isilo.
Moonlit warrior -- Isil-calyaina mahtar or ohtar.

I can't find anything corresponding to "lore" or "master" in Adûnaic.

-issë is a feminine-name suffix in Quenya, and Ardalambion suggests the existence of an "element" lor, meaning "dream", so Lorissë probably means something like "dream-maiden."

 

Ithildin -

Would 'olor' then be a root in the name 'Olorin'? Just curious.

With regards to Doriathrin, I will certainly take you up on that offer. Would you prefer I post the stuff I want translated here, or in mail?

Thank you!!

Sphinx

 

Aerlinnel -

Thanks so much!!! A bunch of problems solved with that.

What would be 'loremaster' in Quenya, then, or Sindarin??

so Lorissë probably means something like "dream-maiden."

Thanks for that. Another problem solved.

Would Taurendil be 'forest lover'? Or something else?

Sphinx

 

Would Taurendil be 'forest lover'?

Yup.

Loremaster -- Quenya ingolmo, plural ingolmor; Sindarin translation will be added later, when I have access to my own computer and Dragon Flame.

Edit: Sindarin hîrist, maybe. Ithildin, what do you think?

 

Would 'olor' then be a root in the name 'Olorin'? Just curious.

Yes, it is._Ôl'_= (S) ‘dream’ while _olor_, _olórë_, _lor_ are given to mean 'dream' in Quenya
_Olórin_ is said to come from _olos_ meaning (1) "dream, vision" according to the Quenya Wordlist from Ardalambion.

With regards to Doriathrin, I will certainly take you up on that offer. Would you prefer I post the stuff I want translated here, or in mail?

Posting here is fine, that way others can contribute and comment if they like. The most recognizable features of Doriathrin appear to be the use of possessive and plural endings, so if possible, I would suggest trying to include those in your text. And maybe look through the Doriathrin word list at Ardalambion and see if any of those words can be incorporated into your sentences also.

Ithildin (*

 

Yes, I think _hírist_ would work. Would the extra-long vowel shorten to a long vowel in the compound?

Here are some more possibilities – all open to discussion…

_Istchír_ what would happen to that difficult (impossible?) consonant cluster in the middle? I think it would have to change. Would it become _Ithchír_ ? (As with _Ithron_ = wizard compared to (Q) _Istar_?)

_Heredir-istui_ = ‘learned master’
_herdir_ n. m. master ← i-Cherdir SD/129-31 ◇ hîr+dîr, OS *kʰerundîro & _istui_ learned

_Híridhren_ = ‘wise master’
From: _hîr_ ‘master, lord’ + _idhren_ ‘pondering, wise, thoughtful’

_Saeldir_ = ‘wise man’
From: _sael_ ‘wise’ + _dîr_ m. Arch. ‘man, referring to an adult male (elf, mortal, or of
any other speaking race)’

_Hírgolwen_ = ‘learned master’
From +_ hîr_ ‘master, lord’ + _golwen_ ’wise, leared in deep arts’

Ithildin (*

 

_Istchír_ what would happen to that difficult (impossible?) consonant cluster in the middle?

Ooh, I considered that one and quite deliberately discarded it on the basis of that consonant cluster!

_Saeldir_ = ‘wise man’
From: _sael_ ‘wise’ + _dîr_ m. Arch. ‘man, referring to an adult male (elf, mortal, or of
any other speaking race)’

_Hírgolwen_ = ‘learned master’
From +_ hîr_ ‘master, lord’ + _golwen_ ’wise, leared in deep arts’

Shouldn't the second element of both of these compounds lenit, to produce Saeldhir and Hírolwen (possibly Hír'olwen) respectively?

 

Shouldn't the second element of both of these compounds lenit, to produce Saeldhir and Hírolwen (possibly Hír'olwen) respectively?

Interesting question, and the answer (in true Elvish fashion. ;) ) is both yes and no .

Ordinarily, in compound the second element lenits. But there are many exceptions and both instances have precedent to resist lenition in compound.

_Haldir_, _Brandir_, _ceredir_ all retain the _dir_ element (and are specifically listed in Etym as arising from the same root - DER). I also found _feredir_, _Condir_, _randir_, _herdir_ & _gasdil_.
Interestingly, _ceredir_ and _feredir_ both arise from a root ending in ‘d’ so the second ‘d’ is dropped rather than lenited. In Third Age Sindarin some words, such as _curinir_, the ‘d’ becomes ‘n’, under the ‘nd > nn’ rule, but, actually I couldn’t find much in the way of evidence that‘d’ ever lenits to ‘dh’ as would be expected in compound. Can you cite examples? I find this curious indeed.

Also, ‘g’ may not lenit in compound following ‘r’ – we do have the specific precedents of _Argonath_, _orgaladh_ , & _orgilion_ and, additionally, in the word _ingem_ (_in_ + _gem_ = old – lit. year-sick) and the name _Aragorn_.


However, some of these words represent older forms of Sindarin – but if that is the time period the story is set in, that might not be a bad thing. And any word for ‘loremaster’ would probably be old and could well have resisted updating through the ages.

Also, all the examples I found of ‘g’ resisting lenition (except _gasdil_ - which may also be an older form) happen to occur in words of Númenorian or Gondorian origin, which might or might not be significant.

So, IMHO, both _Saeldir_ & _Hírgolwen_ are well-founded enough to use, but as always, nothing is set in stone.

Ithildin (*

 

Oooh. I like 'Saeldir'. There is a lot can do with that. Thanks, Ithildin!

With regards to the Doriathrin, I was trying to figure out the Sindar equivalent of 'May a star shine upon the hour of your greeting' or something like that.

How would a person say - "My King wanted it, and so it shall be."?

I saw the word 'istil' or 'istel' at Ardalambion, meaning 'silver light' in Doriathrin. Could that be used in a name?

Random name translation again. What would be 'Warrior of the East' in Sindarin? 'Maethrun'?

Thank so much, both of you. I've never been one for names, but I'm learning a lot out here.

Sphinx

 

What would be 'Warrior of the East' in Sindarin? 'Maethrun'?

Perhaps _Maethor adh-‘rûn_ . What do you think Aerlinnel?



I'm working on the other translations (just so you know i haven't forgotten)

Ithildin (*

 

I think that adh-‘rûn would mean something more like "to/for the East." Personally, I would use uin 'Rûn, "of/from the East," or perhaps en 'Rûn, "of the East" (although en should properly only be used with common, definite nouns, and the question is whether the Eldar would have considered the East to be a common noun.)

 

Ai, these confusing mutations. My bad. I should have made it _Maethor e- ‘rûn_. I think that is the form the genitive _en_ would take before _rh-_ .

But, as you mentioned, ‘East’ probably should be considered a proper noun. So then the genitive article would be omitted. But it might be better with the definite article _i_: _Maethor i Thrûn_ "Warrior (of) the East" (c.f. _ Condir i Drann_ "Mayor (of) the Shire"). Thoughts?

_Maethor uin ‘Rûn_ sounds good too; but since nouns are indefinite, perhaps it might be translated “a warrior from the East”? Adding the definite article would make it more specific, but would also force lenition: _I Vaethor uin ‘Rûn_, ‘The Warrior from the East’. Opinions?

I appreciate your input.
Ithildin (*

 

Thanks, guys!

Actually, I was thinking of 'Warrior from the east' as a title, something that men could call a general or captain from the Eastern lands of Middle-earth. Would it undergo any changes then?

Ithildin, any headway on the other stuff? No hurry.

Thanks so much, both of you.

Sphinx

 

Ithildin
I think I would recommend _Maethor i Thrûn_ . I think it carries the meaning you want, but it’s up to you.

And yes, I am making progress on the other things.

Re: Doriathrin translations:
I saw the word 'istil' or 'istel' at Ardalambion, meaning 'silver light' in Doriathrin. Could that be used in a name?

I like _Istel_ better than _Istil_ but I think either would do. Suggestions:
(F) _Istelien_ or maybe _Istelwen_
(M) _Istelon_

Another possible name I came across:
“_Gwethil_ would seem to mean ‘shadow-woman’”

Also:
_Garthurian_ "Fenced Realm" (a name of Doriath) (LR:360 s.v. 3AR) or "Hidden Realm" (LR:393 s.v. THUR).


And I’ve been working on the other sentences you wanted. Tolkien had translated the phrase “A star shines upon the hour of our meeting,” into Telerin, which is close to Doriathrin in some ways. There’s really just one word that needs major revisions and I’m trying to pin down just how it would be changed.

For the other sentence, I don’t think any of those exact words are listed. What Doriathrin words we have are almost all nouns and adjectives from names and place names. But I can translate it into Sindarin and then make alterations according to what I can see in the articles on Doriathrin and Ilkorin.

Ithildin (*

 

But I can translate it into Sindarin and then make alterations according to what I can see in the articles on Doriathrin and Ilkorin. That seems perfect. Thanks, Sphinx

 

I tried to get some feedback from the Elfling list where the ‘great knowledgeable ones’ hang out, but they have not yet responded. I will let you know if they ever do. Anyway, for what it’s worth, here are my guesses: With regards to the Doriathrin, I was trying to figure out the Sindar equivalent of 'May a star shine upon the hour of your greeting' or something like that. We have the following to compare: (Quenya) Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo (Tolkien) (Telerin) Él síla lúmena vomentienguo (Tolkien) (Sindarin) Gîl síla erin lû e-govaded vín (from Council of Elrond site) “A star shines upon the hour of our meeting” (Doriathrin) * El sila lûna gobaded mhín (a rather wild guess) _El_ - ‘star’ (D) from article at Ardalambion _ sila_ - “shines” same or similar in (Q), (S) and (Telerin) – so likely same in (D) too. _ lûna_ “at the time” - from Middle Sindarin translation by Florian Dombach at Fellowship of the Wordsmiths site: ”lûna - as (lit. 'at the time') | lû + suffix na (s. S Tuorna, na Duor)“ (?) _gobaded_ “meeting” from _govaded_ , with no lenition in compound (as seems to be the norm in Doriathrin) (?) _mhín_ “our” Sindarin pronoun – with the older lenition pattern of m> mh O.K , I know it may not be right, but the guesses seemed logical at the time. I tried anyway. How would a person say - "My King wanted it, and so it shall be."? How about this? (D) Ha i anirad Arana, ar natha carnen. It (is) the King’s desire, and it will be done. It incorporates the Doriathrin _-a_ (the possessive ending) on _Aran_ the word for ‘King’. A few more terms that might prove useful to you… (from the article at Ardalambion) Eglador "land of the Elves", the Doriathrin name of Doriath Nivrim "West-march", a part of Doriath. Literally *"West-border", sc. rim "edge, hem, border" Radhrim "East-march", a part of Doriath argad "outside the fence", the exterior, the outside. In Doriath, "the fence" of course refers to the Girdle of Melian. Good luck on your story, Ithildin *(

 

Thank you, Ithildin! I certainly needed those. Otherwise ol' Dior would have kicked me out of his harem. Sphinx

 

I'm a bit confused. Are these terms in Quenya or Sindarin? Can anyone give me the Quenya for the following terms: Counselor Wise Counselor Guide Mender (as in the case of fixing things, not the word for healer, though, unless they have to be the same) Thanx for any help you can give. RAKSHA

 

Hi, To answer your question, the terms discussed above are mostly Sindarin. I really can’t give you Quenya as I haven’t studied that language yet (there are only so many hours in a day…). Just looking over the Eng/Quenya wordlist I didn’t see any of these in existing form, though there is a verb for “to fix” so something could be coined there. I expect the others could also, but it would take more work. In case you are interested in Neo-Sindarin suggestions, I’ve included some. I know that may not be what you need, but I thought I’d offer. The first is attested (VT 41) the rest are constructions. _gûr_ – heart (in the moral sense), counsel _gûron_ – counselor _gûron hael_ – wise counselor _togor_ or _togron_ – guide (lit. one who leads, brings) (from _tog-_ to lead, to bring) _penídir_ – mender (from _penía -_ to fix, to set) You might try the Council of Elrond site, they do have a Quenya discussion there, or the LOTR Plaza, they have one too. Just a ‘heads up’ – you may have to register at those sites. http://www.councilofelrond.com/index.php http://www.lotrplaza.com/forum/default.asp?ForumID=0 Hope that helps, Ithildin *(

 

I'm not sure what the CoE's policy is, but you do indeed have to register at the Plaza to be able to post. Well worth it, though, IMO -- there are some very knowledgeable people over there. -Aerlinnel

 

I agree, WELL worth it! Some of the same knowledgable people visit both forums. And registration is free, of course. I just know some folks dislike having to register, so I mentioned it so they would be forewarned. Ithildin *(

 

• Forums Home
• 1 Month of Posts
• FAQs

Forum Conferences

• Challenges
• General
• Members
• Resources
• Stories

A conference is a collection of forums.

Intended for: General Audience

This forum is open to all HASA members. It is read-only for the general public.

Membership on HASA is free and it takes only a few minutes to join. If you would like to participate, please click here.

If you are already a member, please log in to participate.

« Back to Languages in Arda