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Discussing: Sindarin - where do the direct objects go?

Sindarin - where do the direct objects go?

I've hunted around, and cannot find any clear information about 1) what the direct object equivalent of "it" would be or 2) where it would go in a sentence, assuming I had "it".

I've found two references: The Etymologies suggest "ta", which seems to tack onto the end of the verb like a suffix. Whether it does anything to the verb's vowels, whether conjugated or stem vowels, I don't know. It's also suggested this may be obsolete.

The other is Helge Fauskanger's section "Sindarin: Pronouns" at Ardalambion: there, it's said that there is a form "den" attested in "The Lord's Prayer." However, the only version of the Lord's Prayer I can find is in Quenya, so I don't see how this helps me. [Edit: Never mind, found it. So now I know where it goes, I think...]

Also, does anyone know if there's any word for "to oppose"? I've looked but haven't found anything.





Re: Sindarin - where do the direct objects go?

These don't  exactly  mean "oppose", but are some related suggestions:

_ubed_  (denial)

_tarlanc_ (stiff-necked, obstinate)

_thar-_ (prefix - athwart)
could possibly be combined with _thel-_ (v. - will/purpose)


Re: 'it': 
even though you already found the answer, here's an intriguing possibility to consider…

According to the opinion of Thorsten Renk, (author of the 'Pedin Edhellen' Sindarin course) the pronoun _den_ (it) might possibly be used for a more general or more distant 'it', while  _han_ (sing.)/_hain_ (pl) might be used for a more specific and/or closer 'it'.

Used as a direct object, I believe the pronoun would probably follow the verb.


Ithildin  *(



Re: Sindarin - where do the direct objects go?

Hi Ithildin!

[snip possible 'oppose' substitutes]

Hmm. Those are interesting, but they're a little too strong for what I'm looking for, or else don't quite fit the context (which of course you couldn't know, since I didn't give the context). Thanks for searching, though.

[snip more general versus more specific "its"]

The spatial/abstraction level combination is doing bad things to my brain. I've got a metonymic it that neither party currently possesses, but both of them want. So it's a very specific object, but it's also distant in that it's not within their grasp yet. I'm not sure, therefore, which one would be more appropriate, assuming this theory is correct.

Basically, this is what I've come up with: Ú-ruidathonta, i archam.

Does that look right to you?




Re: Sindarin - where do the direct objects go?

Ú-ruidathonta, i archam.

Since _ar-_ can have more than one meaning, I'm not absolutely positive of the translation, but I think I follow the general meaning.

I would suggest perhaps using _den_ instead of the _-ta_ suffix. I know that _den_ is attested, while I'm not sure of the source/status of the suffixed form. I'm not an expert, but _-ta_ looks like it might be an archaic form.

So perhaps -
Ú-ruidathon den, i archam.

Or possibly even without the pronoun:
I archam ú-ruidathon.

Hope this is helping some, Smile
Ithildin  *( 



Re: Sindarin - where do the direct objects go?

From the corpus, we've got 'Im Narvi hain echant' (literally 'I Narvi them made'). There are examples in numerous languages of direct objects that precede the verb when they are pronouns. Direct objects are normally lenited, so 'hain' might be 'sain', leading some to guess at 'sen' as the singular form for 'it'.

'den', also attested, is probably 'ten', lenited as a direct object, and in the Lord's Prayer, we do see it appearing before the verb.



Re: Sindarin - where do the direct objects go?

Thanks for the clarification. I agree, it would indeed be better to put the direct object before the verb. Sorry for the confusion.



Re: Sindarin - where do the direct objects go?

Given that it seems like we're still not sure where to put "it", I'm going with the simpler option--I'll just drop the pronoun. Not present, no problem!

Thanks, guys!




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