Forum: Hands of the King

Discussing: Ch. 28 - Vows

Ch. 28 - Vows

Vows The fourth of six Denethor POV chapters, no strong warnings, a slight squick where Maiaberiel is concerned (but isn't that always the case?). This chapter deals with more mundane topics than Belegaer. The betrothal finally takes place, several kisses are exchanged, Imrahil gets a few cameos, politics are tangled, and Telperien demands to be noticed. My deep thanks to my wonderful beta reading crew: Julie, Nath, Denna, Dragon Lady 7, Two Flower, and RohWyn. Ang

 

 

Re: Ch. 28 - Vows

Ok - I'm going to apologize right at the beginning. I loved it - so I'm writing way too much about how much. So forgive me! I loved the whole Adrahil/Denethor thing at the beginning. Wow - I did not expect that! From Adrahil not even taking his hand in welcome, to Denethor's stamping out... Wow.... And Luinil's defense of Finduilas - very nice! i was shouting, 'Yeah!' And I love the kneeling - wow. (sorry - I think I'm going to be using that word a lot).... The bit with Beruthiel was incredibly difficult to read - yikes! I do not like that woman... and what you have made Denethor go through - wow. Love him taking Imrahil with him - I do so hope this will help when the battle of all battles is imminent (sp?). I do like the fact that he came to Minas Tirith to help, and was given temporary stewardship in LOTR. I loved the reasoning used, and the cunning of Denethor, with the whole Duinmir conversation. Brilliant. And I love The Hound. Excellent chapter - as they all are... Couple nitpicks? The paragraph that begins with 'That is why I have entrusted him to you....' Adrahil HAS - I think it should be HAD.... Also - I was taught that, when a word ended in 's', to make it possessive - you just add the (') like this Finduilas' - not Finduilas's. I could be wrong. I've been known to be wrong once in awhile... Agape

 

 

Re: Ch. 28 - Vows

I loved the whole Adrahil/Denethor thing at the beginning. Wow - I did not expect that! From Adrahil not even taking his hand in welcome, to Denethor's stamping out... Wow.... And Luinil's defense of Finduilas - very nice! i was shouting, 'Yeah!' And I love the kneeling - wow. (sorry - I think I'm going to be using that word a lot).... A risky move on Denethor's part. I'm trying to think what would have happened if Adrahil had *not* backed down. Nothing the Warden does is without political meaning, not even falling in love. He could not allow such an insult to go unanswered. Adrahil is in for a long, difficult lesson. Maiaberiel is a pretty sick twist, but the whole family could stand some major psychotherapy. Imrahil will start to come into his own. I have some major plans for him later in the story. I'll look for the typo. As for whether the possesive is just an apostrophe or an apostrophe followed by an s, I've had a few debates about that. I've been known to be wrong a heck of a lot, so I may be wrong on this, too. ;-) Toodles - Ang

 

 

Re: Ch. 28 - Vows

when a word ended in 's', to make it possessive - you just add the (') like this Finduilas' - not Finduilas's. When in doubt, just keep your copy of Elements of Style handy. Rule 1 is that you always add 's, regardless of what consonant the word ends with.

 

 

Re: Ch. 28 - Vows

According to the AP Stylebook: Plural nouns ending in S: Add only an apostrophe: the churches' needs, the girls' toys, the horses' food, the ships' wake, states' rights, the VIPs' entrance. Singular common nouns ending in S: Add 's unless the next word begins with an S: the hostess's invitation, the hostess' seat; the witness's answer, the witness' story. Singular proper names ending in S: Use only an apostrophe: Achilles' heel, Agnes' book, Ceres' rites, Kansas' schools. Ah, grammar. *hack* I loved the chapter, of course. Denethor being a fruit and not talking to Finduilas was maddening, but realistic. I'm looking forward to seeing more Thorongil. I saw screen-caps from the 2004 "King Arthur" and Clive Owen looks similar to how I picture Denethor. What that has to do with anything...? I just thought I'd throw it out there. lol

 

 

Re: Ch. 28 - Vows

Oh wow... Can nothing ever go smooth for poor Denethor and Fin?! (Ang, I think remember you once said something that would only allow a 'no' for an answer, but still...) The degree of Adrahil's hostility really surprised me. Once again, I was glad already knew the outcome, or I'd have been screaming at the guy in frustation. Though to tell the truth, Denethor's charade with regard to his feelings for Fin (or rather, the supposed lack thereof) must have contributed greatly to what happened between him and her father. Sometimes, Denethor's too smart for his own good! And too curious about what's really going on, too. Otherwise, the situation with Beruthiel you hinted at wouldn't have escalated. So in a way, I guess he's also responsible for how his sister treats him. Though it makes me shudder nonetheless. That woman is just EVIL! I sympathised with him wanting to clean himself of her touch. I must say Fin bears with all of this much better than I would. Astara

 

 

Re: Ch. 28 - Vows

Nope, their life together is one long downhill slide into disaster, punctuated by the occasional bout of happiness.

Adrahil's hostlity is out of proportion, but he's had a few months in which to brood on it. Luinil may have overplayed her hand back in Minas Tirith when she badgered him into accepting Denethor's suit right then, but she herself was trying to forestall Adrahil getting too cozy with the idea of Thorongil as a son-in-law. I think it's fair to say he really doesn't want Finduilas married to anyone just yet. In a few chapters, Adrahil and Finduilas will have a talk about all of this.

The connection between Denethor and Maiaberiel is icky, but it still mostly unconscious on Denethor's side. Well, not any more. He's having to do a lot of psychological backpeddling. This man doesn't have issues - he has subscriptions.

There are going to be some bad lessons ahead for Denethor coming out of his declarations of indifference to Finduilas.

Glad you like it! I'm writing away and am almost done with the next chapter. I'm going to do my best to have it out sometime this weekend.

Toodles - Ang 

 

 

Re: Ch. 28 - Vows

Nope, their life together is one long downhill slide into disaster, punctuated by the occasional bout of happiness. Well, that's pretty much the most depressing thing I've read from you so far, Ang. How 'bout a slow descent into despair, with lots of happy interludes instead? Or is that too AU?

 

 

Re: Ch. 28 - Vows

This man doesn't have issues - he has subscriptions.

Snark!

I've finally caught up, and some random thoughts from the last few chapters: I loved Angelimir, but had mixed feeling about his mistaking Denethor for the king. I liked how you did the scene with the old mariner (I thought Ulmo also), and was sad that Denethor has so much trouble understanding what he must do.

I also wanted to boot Adrahil in the butt, and wondered how much was his concern for Finduilas' happiness, and how much was political. I shall be most interested to see what you do with Imrahil.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Ch. 28 - Vows

I've finally caught up, and some random thoughts from the last few chapters: I loved Angelimir, but had mixed feeling about his mistaking Denethor for the king. I liked how you did the scene with the old mariner (I thought Ulmo also), and was sad that Denethor has so much trouble understanding what he must do.

Angelimir invented himself. When I realized he was still alive, and would have been over 100, it suggested all sorts of fascinating possibilities. Why mixed feelings over identifying Denethor as the king in the dream?

The scene with the mariner is sad - so much possibility, so much blindness (reasonable and not), and a set of choices that could change what will happen - or perhaps not. When we next meet Finduilas (Ch. 31), she ponders all of this.

Adrahil is confused. He is a good person, but not the most clever, politically speaking (Luinil is the strategist in the combination, both more insightful and more subtle), and he confuses love and obedience too easily. He is concerned for his daughter's happiness, though he is unable to understand that he is not the best judge of it. There is no way in which the marriage of his children would not be highly political - they cannot merely wed for love. He's boxed himself in, has made a mess both of dynastic politics and family affection, and is too emotionally invested to take a step back and think clearly. It will be a very painful year (actually two years) for him.

Imrahil's role in the story grows slowly, but steadily. He has a few fun scenes in the next chapter. One of the sub-plots of HotK is the political education of the next Prince of Dol Amroth.

Ang

 

 

Re: Ch. 28 - Vows

One of the sub-plots of HotK is the political education of the next Prince of Dol Amroth. Yeah! Being also an Imrahil fan, I'm looking forward to that!

 

 

Re: Ch. 28 - Vows

Nope, their life together is one long downhill slide into disaster, punctuated by the occasional bout of happiness. Well, that's pretty much the most depressing thing I've read from you so far, Ang. How 'bout a slow descent into despair, with lots of happy interludes instead? Or is that too AU?

Too AU, I think, though the happy times will be very happy. After Boromir is born but before Faramir will be the happiest time, I think. Denethor is not yet Steward, Finduilas is still (relatively) healthy, and there is this little monster racing around, getting into trouble, charming everyone, and convinced that Daddy is the center of the universe. I have a few fun Boromir scenes in mind, though I don't think he'll be quite old enough to carry off the one I really want. What is a reasonable age in months for a baby to be able to toddle quickly (and loudly) for about 15 feet?

Toodles - Ang

 

 

Re: Ch. 28 - Vows

What is a reasonable age in months for a baby to be able to toddle quickly (and loudly) for about 15 feet?

Most babies take their first steps sometime between 9 and 12 months and are walking well by the time they're 14 or 15 months old.

Developmental Milestones:Walking

Fifteen feet is not a great distance for a toddler. I'd say within a month of walking at the very most. My youngest did nearly 15 feet the first time I saw her walk, a great headlong rush across a large room (and she was 9 months and a week old at the time).

Gwynnyd

Edit: This posted all in italics and ranover into the next post. I have no clue why. It 'previewed' with only the quoted portion at the top in italics. Now it 'previews' all in plain text. All the tags seem to be properly closed in the html editor when I look at it. I am removing all the italics - take it as read that the first paragraph is a quote I'm replying to. If it's STILL itallics, I am sorry!

 

 

Re: Ch. 28 - Vows

Ok, I think I get it now. I thought you meant that this was going to be an unhappy marriage from day one, which is somewhat depressing. I mean, Denethor and Finduilas are evidently in love and both must expect at least some happiness in their marriage. Plus, unlike us, they don't know that it's all going to end badly. I always figured the brief marriage to Finduilas (and maybe the birth of his sons) were the only bright spots in Denethor's otherwise blighted existence. I think what you're suggesting is that they're somewhat happily married, but that circumstances conspire to keep them from being too happy. I can accept that...it's far less depressing.

What is a reasonable age in months for a baby to be able to toddle quickly (and loudly) for about 15 feet?

Not that I have much firsthand experience to go on, but I guess it would depend on how old the baby was. Don't babies usually walk/run by 14 months or so? My nephew (who is now 2) was running by that age. Now he just climbs stuff...

Anyway, back to studying...sigh

 

 

Re: Ch. 28 - Vows

So I think I screwed something up. There's no reason that my whole last post is in italics. Sorry.

 

 

Re: Ch. 28 - Vows

Not your fault. It seems to be my post that messed things up.

 
Mea culpa - but  I have no clue how to fix it.  I've tried and it didn't help.

Gwynnyd 

 

 

Re: Ch. 28 - Vows

Not your fault! The Italics were actually cascading down from *my* post. I've been noticing a bug in the editor. If you use a block quote *and* italics, the post puts a bogus self-closing emphasis tag at the end of your post. I'm using square brackets so you can see what happens: [blockquote] [em] Valid italics tag surrounding text which is indented. [/em] [/blockquote] [p] Another line or two ofnon-indented text , followed by a closed paragraph tag and then a BOGUS italics tag.[/p] [em /] See that last "em" followed by a backslash? That's the broken tag which causes everything after it to go cattywampus. I've seen it with bold tags and font color tags, too. It seems to happen most often when using the blockqoute/indent buttons. I'm in talks with someone to take on the task of Forums Manager to help fix the occasional HTML issues. Toodles - Ang

 

 

Re: Ch. 28 - Vows

Ok, I think I get it now. I thought you meant that this was going to be an unhappy marriage from day one, which is somewhat depressing. I mean, Denethor and Finduilas are evidently in love and both must expect at least some happiness in their marriage. Plus, unlike us, they don't know that it's all going to end badly. I always figured the brief marriage to Finduilas (and maybe the birth of his sons) were the only bright spots in Denethor's otherwise blighted existence. I think what you're suggesting is that they're somewhat happily married, but that circumstances conspire to keep them from being too happy. I can accept that...it's far less depressing. Their *marriage* is very happy in the sense that they are absolutely in love, care deeply about each other, treat each other well, and so forth. Yes, there will be ups and downs, but no more than any ordinary marriage. They live in trying times, of course, and this adds tension to their life together. OTOH, they are political animals, and are not daunted by the challenge fate hands them. In this story, at least, it is not a mistake that they are the romantic couple leading their people in dire times. My take on it is that Denethor would not have sunk so low had not he lost his wife, in part because she pulled him out of despair and gave him hope. Losing her brutally forced him back into that condition - and worse. But before then, a good amount of happy moments and a strong romance. This story will be rated "Adult" before too much longer... Sigh, I think Boromir will be too young for the scene I want to do. We'll see how precocious he is. Toodles - Ang

 

 

Re: Ch. 28 - Vows

The most precocious babies might start walking as early as 9 months, my eldest started at 10 months and it was considered early. 12 months is the average age, I think. Basically, I agree with Gwynnyd

 

 

Re: Ch. 28 - Vows

My take on it is that Denethor would not have sunk so low had not he lost his wife, in part because she pulled him out of despair and gave him hope. Losing her brutally forced him back into that condition - and worse. That's exactly how I see him. But before then, a good amount of happy moments and a strong romance. Good to know because otherwise I would get depressed and despair. This story will be rated "Adult" before too much longer... Woohoo! I admit I expect quite some fireworks, after all they've been through. [/fangirl ]

 

 

Re: Ch. 28 - Vows

Hi! I wanted to add that my Aunt started walking at the age of 6 months, which is really young, but (obviously) does happen. Hope that helps!

 

 

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