Henneth Annûn Story Archive

I find myself in need of the Sindarin or Quenya word for either gauntlet or glove. I checked a couple of on-line sources with no luck. Thanks for any help with this! Branwyn

 

No word for them that I can find, either. But you might try using "hand cover." esgal cam would be the singular form, litterally "cover of a hand." Hope that helps. Bado na sídh. Berz.

 

Berz-- Thanks much! I am attempting to translate the realworld name "foxglove" (which is derived from "folk's glove"--gloves of the Fair Folk) into elvish. However, without a word for glove or gauntlet, I may use "fairy bell" instead, another common name for the digitalis plant. "Bell" would be nyelle in Quenya and nelle in Sindarin (I may have that backwards!). It appears that "elves" would be elda and eledh. However, how do I indicate possession--so that it is "bells of the elves"? Any help with this is appreciated! Regards Branwyn

 

Possession is usually indicated through syntax (that is, word order). For example, to say aran Gondor is to say "king of Gondor" or "Gondor's king." The possesor comes after the possessed, if that makes sense. The words you found are a little bit off, at least for the Sindarin. "Bell" is nell and the word you have for "Elf" is a slightly archaic form mostly used in compound words and names. More commonly used is Edhel. So, "bell of Elf" would be nell Edhel. However, it looks like you want both to be in plural format, so it would come out to nill Edhil under the mutation rules for plurals and it would be "bells of Elves." However, it also sounds like you're talking about all the Elves in existance, as a race, as if to say "bells of the Elves." In that case it would be nill in Edhil. The in is the particle for "the." Those are the rules under Sindarin. I'm afraid I don't know syntax or much in the way of vocab for Quenya. But if what you're working on is set in M-e, it's more likely to be Sindarin, anyway. Hope it helps. ^_^ Bado na siidh. Berz.

 

The words you found are a little bit off, at least for the Sindarin. "Bell" is neld and the word you have for "Elf" is a slightly archaic form mostly used in compound words and names. More commonly used is Edhel. I found the Sindarin word for "bell" at the following site. http://www.phy.duke.edu/~trenk/elvish/pron_rek.html According to them, the word is "nell" (which I prefer to the sound of "neld"). I can't say whether this is correct or not. What is your source? Regarding "eledh," it sounds more melodious than "edhel" (at least to me), so I chose that form. Thanks for your help with this! Regards Branwyn

 

Er... Nell was what I said... As for Edhel, the page you gave actually uses that several times on its index page. Eledh, as far as I know, exists nowhere in Sindarin (getting home and looking at my resources, I find that I was mistaken about the archaic version, thing). There's the word Elleth which means "Elf maid," but that's as close as I've found sighted anywhere. As a resource for vocab, I use a downloadable program called "Dragon Flame." It sights a referance for every word it has and it's always either the books or the Etymologies, so I have complete faith in it. Elvish isn't necessarily "melodious" sounding. A lot of people fall into that trap. Sindarin has its fair share of "ugly" words. For example, there's the word for "brother," gwador, which I personally think sounds like it was hawked up out of the back of someone's throat. It's the voiced glottal stop followed by the rounded vowel that does it, I think. Ends up kinda the same motion as spitting a nice, big loogie. ^_^; Bado na sídh. Berz.

 

The words you found are a little bit off, at least for the Sindarin. "Bell" is neld and the word you have for "Elf" is a slightly archaic form mostly used in compound words and names. More commonly used is Edhel. Above is your original post as excerpted in my reply shortly after --"neld." Perhaps a typo. "Eledh" may be Quenya--as I mentioned in my earlier post, I was not certain that I was not switching the two words since I was working from memory and not my notes. The example that comes to mind is "Eledhwen," which may be Quenya. To my eye and ear, both Sindarin and Quenya are unattractive languages. However, if I am creating the compound word, I reserve the right to make it sound as pleasing as possible. Regards Branwyn

 

Hi Berz, good to see you here! You are right that _eledh_ does not exist in mature Sindarin – actually it’s Noldorin and found in the Etymologies in Lost Road. This is from HKF’s article: Sindarin, the Noble Tongue @ Ardalambion (in the plural formation section): “The vowel E: Concerning this vowel, there happily seems to be agreement between Tolkien's mature Sindarin and most of the earlier material from the Etymologies. … …edhel "Elf", pl. edhil (WJ:364, 377; cf. "Noldorin" eledh pl. elidh in LR:356 s.v. ELED…” And Branwyn, While I can certainly understand your desire to make your constructed word as melodious as possible, I would caution against putting together elements from differing versions of Tolkien’s elven tongues and would at - all costs - avoid combining different languages - such as Sindarin and Quenya. While there is a great deal we do not know about Tolkien’s languages, I would certainly not recommend ignoring what we do know – and we do know he changed the form of many of his words and grammatical rules as the languages evolved. The word _eledh_ is proven to be one that was changed. If you still really want to use that form, you might squeak by if you explain in the story that it is a very, very archaic name for the flower. And if you do, you might want to go back to the OS _nelle_ in place of the mature Sindarin _nell_ for ‘bell’. Just a suggestion. Ithildin *(

 

Ihtildin-- I would caution against putting together elements from differing versions of Tolkien’s elven tongues and would at - all costs - avoid combining different languages - such as Sindarin and Quenya. I have read that Tolkien himself combined elements from the separate languages (the example I recall is the name "Boromir"--though for the life of me I couldn't tell you which languages the elements came from!), [Edit--Appendix F, in a discussion of Quenya and Sindarin names, "Boromir" is mentioned as a word of "mixed" elements.] and as a student of language, JRRT would have been well aware that this occurs in the real world with great frequency. (My favorite example of this is "Torpenhow Hill" in England, which translates as "Hill Hill Hill Hill" in four different languages! [Edit--no, only three, come to think of it, now that I have had at least one morning cup of coffee--I believe "how" and "tor" are both Anglo-Saxon, "pen" is Welsh] Though that name seems unusual in that it was created through a process of accretion, with elements being tacked on over time. ) In English, at least, many of the common names for plants preserve archaic forms of words (often badly-corrupted and garbled archaic forms), so I am not too concerned about creating a less-than-perfectly-correct elven name. I love your idea of using "nelle," the older form of the word, with "eledh." Thanks much! Branwyn

 

Just a random thought--don't these languages seem static, given how long (thousands of years) they are spoken in JRRT's universe? The rate of evolution seems too slow (at least compared to real world, human languages), but maybe that is because the elves are so long-lived? Regards Branwyn

 

Actually when I started learning a bit about Quenya and Sindarin I was surprised how much language changes and sound shifts Tolkien managed to think up for his languages. He spent the better part of his life going over his languages again and again and again. If you take the ages of Middle-earth as a measure they have to seem static, I guess. But if you take one human life time as a measure, it is more than awesome. And at the moment especially Sindarin is undergoing drastic changes - if you look at the number of people busy on a high level of professional skill analyzing the language and creating new words... I bet that Tolkien would be fascinated with that, even if there are sure some things he would grind his teeth at.;-) Yours Juno

 

Agreed that it was very cool how he incorporated a set of underlying rules! Looking at that word for "bell" just made me curious. Nyelle/nelle/nell shows so little change. I will admit that I have not made a study of the morphology of elvish, LOL, so this was the first time I had compared different forms of a single word. Branwyn

 

the word for "brother," gwador, which I personally think sounds like it was hawked up out of the back of someone's throat. It's the voiced glottal stop followed by the rounded vowel that does it, I think. Berz -- perhaps you're pronouncing it wrong? That's a voiced velar stop followed by a rounded semivowel...

 

the word for "brother," gwador, which I personally think sounds like it was hawked up out of the back of someone's throat. It's the voiced glottal stop followed by the rounded vowel that does it, I think. Berz -- perhaps you're pronouncing it wrong? That's a voiced velar stop followed by a rounded semivowel... I don't care as long as you aim for the spittoon...

 

LOL Actually, I was talking about the G and the O... Actually... is a G sound glottal or velar? I mean in general, not just Sindarin. It's been a while since I took Linguistics 101 and anatomy has never been my strong point. ^_^; In any case, it's a movement from the back of the mouth to the front, which can get messy, sometimes... Anyhow, as to the staticness of the Elvish languages, you also have to consider the immortality/long life of the Elves. Human languages only evolve as fast as they do becuase people die off. I mean, once our grandparents have all left us, how many people here will understand what it means to say "I won't buy that; it's too dear"? There's a very interesting bit on this that Tolkien himself wrote. I believe it's one of the Teachings of Pengolodh in Peoples of Middle-earth. It's really interesting. It's from the standpoint of "why do Elvish languages evolve at all?" I still gotta caution you against using too much Quenya if what you're working on is set in Middle-earth rather than Valinor. Quenya rather abruptly fell out of use early in the first age thanks to the Edict of Thingol; it was seen as the tongue of murderers and kin-slayers after what Feanor et al did at Alqualonde. Bado na siidh. Berz (really wishing for her precious accent short-cuts right about now...)

 

The Qenya Lexicon has: mantl: glove mantele: gauntlet Mantele could be used in Quenya without any problems, but 'mantl' isn't a valid form in LotR-style Quenya, and should probably become 'mantel'.

 

I still gotta caution you against using too much Quenya if what you're working on is set in Middle-earth rather than Valinor. Quenya rather abruptly fell out of use early in the first age thanks to the Edict of Thingol; it was seen as the tongue of murderers and kin-slayers after what Feanor et al did at Alqualonde. I had a specific (and very possibly false, LOL) reason for wanting to use a plant name in Quenya in addition to a Sindarin name. In the Houses of Healing chapter in ROTK, that garrulous, annoying healer tells Aragorn the name for the athelas plant in several different languages, including in what he calls (I think) "the noble tongue." I am guessing that he means Quenya because the healer is so surprised when Aragorn shows he is familiar with that language. I don't think he would have been surprised at Aragorn knowing Sindarin. So, I made the assumption that Quenya was used (at least for plants) for the formal names of plants, in the same way that scientific Latin is used nowadays. (After all, using the folk names from the common speech could be dangerously inaccurate when you are dealing with medicinal plants.) [Edit: There would be no Linnaeus to set up a system of nomenclature, but--in a language which is not used for everyday speech, like Quenya--the names would be less likely to change or be reused for similar plants (which happens a lot with common names of plants).] So, Quenya as scientific Latin--is that an unreasonable idea? Branwyn

 

The Qenya Lexicon has: mantl: glove Nath-- Thank you!

 

From 'The Houses of Healing' ROTK, ‘Your lordship asked for kingsfoil, as the rustics name it, he said; or athelas in the noble tongue, or to those who know somewhat of the Valinorean. . .’ ‘I do so,’ said Aragorn, ‘and I care not whether you say now asëa aranion or kingsfoil, so long as you have some.’ It is indeed the use of the Quenya name asëa aranion that indicates Aragorn's knowledge of lore and impresses Ioreth. However, the 'Noble Tongue' referred to there would be Sindarin not Quenya. I think, being the natural linguists that they were, that the Elves would have translated all words of importance into Sindarin and in most cases they would not have needed Quenya ‘scientific names’ for things. If they did, I think it would be more likely in Imladris (a center of lore and healing) than in most other Elven settlements. However, that some Quenya names survived as ‘scientific’ terms is possible, IMO, also among Men. As I understand it from the appendices, the Quenya names for calendar days, months, etc. were retained from the Númenorian usage by most Westron speakers (except Hobbits). I interpret that to mean the people of Gondor in general, though it seems the Dúnedain used only the Sindarin names. Ioreth apparently did recognize the Quenya term for the plant, so some High Elven lore must have been taught to the healers. Interesting topic, I’d like to know what others think about this. Ithildin *(

 

Thanks to all for your responses! But now I have another question--what language is spoken in the streeets of Minas Tirith? Frodo recognizes that Faramir and the rangers are speaking elvish among themselves in Ithilien. In Appendix F, JRRT says that Sindarin is still spoken daily by the residents of Minas Tirith and the surrounding townlands and by the people of Dol Amroth. But Pippin, who doesn't know Sindarin, can understand Denethor and the other folks in Gondor! This has never made any sense to me. Were the Men switching to the Common Speech out of courtesy as soon as they saw the hobbit? However, there are times when he is merely overhearing the conversations of others (for example, when he and Gandalf reach the Rammas Echor, Pippin is asleep; yet when he wakes at the sound of voices, he can understand what Gandalf and the Men are saying about him.) Wouldn't those soldiers, who recognize Gandalf and have probably spoken with him before, speak in Sindarin? Or is the daily use of Sindarin confined to the upper classes (similar to how French was spoken in Tsarist Russia)? But Faramir's rangers did not seem like a pack of aristocrats, so this analogy doesn't work very well. Very interested to hear your comments. I have been wondering about this for years. Branwyn

 

My guess would be that Sindarin is spoken by the upper classes more than the common folk, considering that the Warden of the Houses of Healing calls it "the noble tongue." However, one of the ideas behind Minas Tirith is that it's a fading empire drifting further away from its noble heritage, so I'd image the aristocracy might actually switch between Sindarin and Common quite frequently. As to the Rangers of Ithilien, recall that they're right on the boarder of the conflict, in a woods where who-knows-what might be lurking about to listen in. It would make sense for the Rangers to use a language they know wouldn't be spoken in Mordor or undersootd by any of their enemies. It would make sense that part of their training would include some basic Sindarin. Just my own musings. ^_^ Bado na sídh. Berz.

 

I'll venture something here... Like others said before me, Sindarin could be used among the upper classes, in the same way that Elves of upper classes used Quenya (Galadriel is an example). This is something very interesting, considering that Tolkien showed a remarkable emphasis on the evolution of languages. The pattern can be seen as this: High Elves talk in Quenya and they mix with the lesser -for lack of better word - Elves. Now note that most of these latter Elves are of Telerin origin, whose Tongue evolves to Sindarin. The High Elves are too few to insist on Quenya, since the Sindar Elves are not familiar with it, so they adapt and they talk Sindarin when addressin to the other Elves... Something like that is happening to the world of Men. Minas Tirith was consisted of Numenoreans who had to return to Middle-earth and mix with the lesser people after the destruction of their homeland. These lesser folk couldn't possibly know even the basics of the Elven Tongue, so the Numenoreans adapted and assumed the Common Tongue as the official one. As for Sindarin, it was used only by royalty. As for Rangers... I do remember they were divided into two big groups - the ones from the North (to which Aragorn belonged) and the ones from Ithilien (to which Faramir belonged). Still, they had a thing in common: They were consisted almost solely by Numenoreans, which could mean they were all aware of the Elven Tongue and even able to speak it at need. Just my two cents...

 

Actually, Galadriel spoke Quenya because she was a Noldor, one of very few left in M-e by the time of the War of the Ring. Speaking Quenya vs. speaking Sindarin had nothing to do with status within the Elven cultures. Elu Thingol was counted among the High Elves and refused to speak Quenya, as you'll recall. Quenya fell out of use in M-e because of the Kinslaying at Alqualondë. You'd be annoyed with the Noldor, too, if they killed off your cousins. Obviously, it was still spoken among the Noldor in M-e, but when speaking to others, they had to use Sindarin. Presumably, Quenya or some descendent form of Quenya is still widely spoken on Valinor. It was also widely used in the earlier days of Númenor, as they had dealings with the Elves sailing from Valinor to visit from time to time. Hence why the descendents of Elendil et al know some of it. Whichever the argument, though, Quenya never really was a M-e language. Its usage among Men may have had something to do with class, but not its usage among Elves. Berz.

 

True... but if I remember correctly, the Noldorin had their own tongue as well, which didn't resemble Quenya. Nevertheless Galadriel preferred to speak the latter... As for Elu Thingol - he was one of the Teleri, too; so we come again to the establishment of the Sindarin as the official tongue. I didn't know that about forbidding the use of the language... I'd expect that there were just too few of the Quenya speakers after the Kinslaying and that's why one wouldn't hear it much... I'll take your word for it though, since you sound better-versed to the Sil than me...

 

In an earlier phase of the development of the Eldarin languages (from the early 1930s to about the beginning of the 1950s, during the time when Tolkien was working on the narrative part of the Lord of the Rings) the Noldor had a language that differed from the Quenya spoken as a lingua franca between the Vanyar (then called Lindar) as well as the Noldor and Teleri. The language spoken by the Exiles resembled the language now known as Sindarin but it was called Noldorin at that time. Maybe that is where you heard about the language of the Noldor that is not Quenya, Beregond? Hopefully I did not sound too geeky now Makamu

 

Well, to be perfectly honest, I came to know of the Noldorin Tongue by seeing in the Council of Elrond site some of words of it... I'm glad to see the story behind its development though, thanks much, Makamu! It certainly straightened some things out for me... Not geeky at all... I love learning new things about Tolkien and his world along the way...

 

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