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Discussing: Eomer's titles

Eomer's titles

Would Eomer have had to drop his Third Marshal rank once he became King? I think that would be the case, but is there any specific mention of it anywhere? And if Eomer did vacate that position, which of the Riders would have likely been named to it? Would they have been given Aldburg as well as their base of operations? One last one, I promise: who would have been the other Marshals?

 

 

Re: Eomer's titles

Marastar, Some of your general questions are explained my HASA Resource Library entry on Marshals of the Mark. If you can wait a few minutes, I'll have the rest of your answer for you. - Barbara

 

 

Re: Eomer's titles

Okay, here's what I find in UT: the Appendices to the Battle of the Fords of Isen: "....when Eomer reordered his realm, Erkenbrand was made Marshal of the West-mark, and Elfhelm Marshal of the East-mark, and these titles were maintained, instead of Second and Third Marshal, neither having precedence over the other." pg 369 It also says that during Theoden's rein, there was no First Marshal, and that ..."2nd & 3rd Marshals were assigned commands according to the need of the time". pg 367

 

 

Re: Eomer's titles

I've just realized two things: 1- I looked at the time Elena posted, which was like 3.15, and, since it's 5.41 here, figured she got sidetracked by RL or something. Yeah, this clock here is on Pacific time, isn't it? So really it's only been like half an hour -- sorry if I just bulldozed right over you in answering, Elena! 2- I typoed "Theoden's reign "as "Theoden's rein", but I find it so apt as a Freudian slip that I'm just going to leave it.

 

 

Re: Eomer's titles

Would Eomer have had to drop his Third Marshal rank once he became King? I think that would be the case, but is there any specific mention of it anywhere? And if Eomer did vacate that position, which of the Riders would have likely been named to it? Yes, yes, and Erkenbrand and Elfhelm: It is recorded that after Théoden's funeral, when Éomer reordered his realm, Erkenbrand was made Marshal of the West-mark, and Elfhelm Marshal of the East-mark, and these titles were maintained, instead of Second and Third Marshal, neither having precedence over the other. In time of war a special appointment was made to the office of Underking: its holder either ruled the realm in the King's absence with the army, or took command in the field if for any reason the King remained at home. In peace the office was only filled when the King because of sickness or old age deputed his authority; the holder was then naturally the Heir to the throne, if he was a man of sufficient age. But in war the Council was unwilling that an old King should send his Heir to battle beyond the realm unless he had at least one other son. Unfinished Tales, Part 3, Ch 5, The Battles of the Fords of Isen: Appendix So, under Éomer, the office of First Marshal became Underking, which was only filled as needed, and Second and Third Marshal became fixed assignments to Marshal of the West-mark and Marshal of the East-mark, equal in status, rather than floating assignments based upon current needs (as explained in the Marshals of the Mark entry). Would they have been given Aldburg as well as their base of operations? I believe that it is likely that Aldburg would continue to be the base of operations for the Marshal of the East-mark (for example, there must have been barracks already built for the personal éored of the current Marshal), and Elfhelm probably lived there or nearby, but the actual house (manor???) and associated property in Aldburg probably remained the hereditary property of Éomer and his descendants. Any sons of his line (including second sons who didn't become King) could have inherited the ownership of the property and inhabited the house. Hope this helps! - Barbara

 

 

Re: Eomer's titles

1- I looked at the time Elena posted, which was like 3.15, and, since it's 5.41 here, figured she got sidetracked by RL or something. Yeah, this clock here is on Pacific time, isn't it? So really it's only been like half an hour -- sorry if I just bulldozed right over you in answering, Elena! Hey, no problem! It's just that the microwave had beeped and I hadn't eaten today and I was *so* hungry... gotta watch those latent Hobbit tendencies... 2- I typoed "Theoden's reign "as "Theoden's rein", but I find it so apt as a Freudian slip that I'm just going to leave it. *snicker* sounds appropriate to me... - Barbara P.S. I just added our new information to the Marshals of the Mark entry, and added an Underking entry.

 

 

Re: Eomer's titles

It's just that the microwave had beeped and I hadn't eaten today and I was *so* hungry... gotta watch those latent Hobbit tendencies. As a matter of fact, I am contemplating a second dinner right this second. And now I shamelessly hijack Marastar's thread cause I'm not skeered o' her-- in the movies, does anyone have any idea what rank the dudes with the black horsetails on their helmets are supposed to be? Are they meant to be captains, y'think? Or whatever the rank is right below Marshal?

 

 

Re: Eomer's titles

in the movies, does anyone have any idea what rank the dudes with the black horsetails on their helmets are supposed to be? Umm, where there other people in the Rohirrim scenes besides Éomer? Seriously, I honestly didn't notice the black tails, but I always assumed that the white tail was more of a personal statement than an indication of rank. (Maybe the tail of their first horse when they were a kid? Harvested after it died, of course...) Anyone else have ideas? - Barbara

 

 

Re: Eomer's titles

Umm, where there other people in the Rohirrim scenes besides Éomer? Blame the filmmakers, because for some inexplicable reason, they felt the need to point the camera at Rohirrim other than Eomer. What's up with that, I couldn't tell ya.......... Seriously, I honestly didn't notice the black tails, but I always assumed that the white tail was more of a personal statement than an indication of rank. Eomer's white horsetail is bang out of the book, and I don't remember it saying anything about it being indicative of rank. I don't think I thought it was, when I read TTT. But seeing black tails in the movie made me think the filmmakers were trying to attribute rank to the tail &/or the colour thereof. And then when I thought it over, it would make more sense it if did have something to do with rank, cause when you're a military guy, they don't really so much encourage "personal statements" in your clothing. I guess it could have something to do with birth, but that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. " Perhaps it's just identifying him as "hottest guy in the MarK", and the black ones are "less hot guys in the Mark". That was an unbelievably fangurly moment. But I'm okay with that.

 

 

Re: Eomer's titles

Eomer's white horsetail is bang out of the book, and I don't remember it saying anything about it being indicative of rank. I don't think I thought it was, when I read TTT. Yup, same here. And then when I thought it over, it would make more sense it if did have something to do with rank, cause when you're a military guy, they don't really so much encourage "personal statements" in your clothing. Well, in modern military uniforms, that would certainly be true... "But, sergeant, I thought that a long ponytail and a dragon-tooth earring would make me look really cool, ya know?" But I think those Rohirric guys weren't quite into mass merchandising yet... IIRC, each of the Rohirric helmets was unique. (I thought the idea of gluing the long hair to the inside the helmets was ingenious...) Perhaps it's just identifying him as "hottest guy in the MarK", and the black ones are "less hot guys in the Mark". I'm sure we can find some obscure corner of canon to justify that theory... That was an unbelievably fangurly moment. But I'm okay with that. Same here! - Barbara

 

 

Re: Eomer's titles

But I think those Rohirric guys weren't quite into mass merchandising yet... IIRC, each of the Rohirric helmets was unique. (I thought the idea of gluing the long hair to the inside the helmets was ingenious...) Probably a lot cooler, temperature-wise! Plus, you don't have to have it braided to your head every day. You're right -- they all have different armour, but I'd think that if the horsetail was a personal statement, or say the tail of your first horse, that everyone would have one. If only I knew the names of the other dudes with horsetails. Maybe it's supposed to be Erkenbrand and Elfhelm -- no, cause I saw one of em when they were leaving for Dunharrow, and Erkenbrand wouldn't have been there. This point has actually been bugging me for quite some time --you can tell me to drop it at any point, cause I'll just yammer. As Marastar can certainly tell you. edit for silly purposes I'm sure we can find some obscure corner of canon to justify that theory... I've got a pen -- I can just write it into my copy of UT, and then argue that it's a really old version, and I can't help it if your copy doesn't say that! "Whaddya mean, that looks handwritten?! That's Tolkien's handwriting!"

 

 

Re: Eomer's titles

I'm sure we can find some obscure corner of canon to justify that theory... I've got a pen -- I can just write it into my copy of UT, and then argue that it's a really old version, and I can't help it if your copy doesn't say that! "Whaddya mean, that looks handwritten?! That's Tolkien's handwriting!" Mind if I borrow that technique sometime? (Shhhh, don't tell Lyllyn...) - Barbara

 

 

Re: Eomer's titles

Thanks everyone! And sorry for not looking in the most obvious place first. This does clarify quite a bit, although I feel a little embarrassed since I do have a copy of UT at home, but was lost in a different chapter. Lazy, lazy, lazy, I know. But it is really hard keeping track of those Wainriders. They move around so much! So just for clarification purposes, Eomer's titles are as follows: King of Rohan Wearer of the White Tail (or, Helm Denoting the Hottest Guy in the Mark) Most Eligible Bachelor in Post-War Middle-earth I hope I'm not missing anything. I do love creating havoc on the boards. Edited to add: If only I knew the names of the other dudes with horsetails. Maybe it's supposed to be Erkenbrand and Elfhelm -- no, cause I saw one of em when they were leaving for Dunharrow, and Erkenbrand wouldn't have been there. This point has actually been bugging me for quite some time --you can tell me to drop it at any point, cause I'll just yammer. As Marastar can certainly tell you. Hijack/yammer away! Talk of Eomer is never boring. I was just thinking about those dark-tailed dudes ... I wonder if it's not meant to show that they're from the West-Mark, maybe? In the movies, there's one next to a mounted Eowyn before they charge into the Pelennor. When Theoden gives his strategic orders to his men, I could hear Theoden call Grimbold by name and Grimbold was wearing a really long, dark tail on his helm (although he didn't when they were in Helm's Deep). He's supposed to be lesser Marshal from the West-Mark, so maybe that's it? I also saw elsewhere that Grimbold commanded the Muster of the West-Mark in Erkenbrand's stead during the Battle on the Pelennor, while Erkenbrand stayed in Rohan. So perhaps the dark-tails are for Riders of the West-Mark. Sorry to burst our little fangurl moment there, though.

 

 

helms & horsetails (was Re: Eomer's titles)

With regard to the Riders with the dark horsetails seen in the movies, those belong to the members of Rohan's Royal Guard - strictly movieverse (see the description and photo at Sideshow Collectibles); bookverse they would be referred to as members of the King's Household (which can be inferred from Háma's designation as Captain of the King's Household - see UT: Battles of the Fords of Isen; he was also referred to as the "Doorward of Théoden" in LotR: King of the Golden Hall). But there is no description of their helms in LotR or UT that I can recall. In UT it says of Erkenbrand that "[he] had in youth been, as most lords, an officer in the King's Riders,..." but it's unclear if this is the same as being a member of the King's Household or simply part of the Muster of Edoras. But still no description of the helms. Bookverse Éomer is the only one specifically described as having a horsetail on his helm, but I think it would be reasonable to envision other marshals of the Riddermark likewise bearing such a mark of their rank, as might other "officers" in the King's Riders (such as Erkenbrand was said to have been in his youth). HTH ~Nessime

 

 

Re: helms & horsetails (was Eomer's titles)

With regard to the Riders with the dark horsetails seen in the movies, those belong to the members of Rohan's Royal Guard - strictly movieverse (see the description and photo at Sideshow Collectibles); bookverse they would be referred to as members of the King's Household I might actually *squeeeee* with joy that someone actually found an answer to this question, but it's 2 in the am, and I cannot *squeee*. But thank you, Nessime! That has been bugging me ever since TTT came out in the theaters!!

 

 

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