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Discussing: Elrond's Title and Lineage

Elrond's Title and Lineage

Recently, I had a story go through the review process where it was not approved. However, I do take exception to the accusations that I was didn't had correct Tolkien facts regarding Lord Elrond, the Noldor Lord of Imladris. As I have over a dozen books written and/or edited by Tolkien and son Christopher and study Tolkien's works as well, I have decided to address the "nay-sayers" in the present forum. I am always up for a good "civil" literary debate and as the literary gauntlets have been thrown down ... I have decided to reply to these misinformed people in this forum. One reviewer said: "Elrond is not a Noldor Lord. He is a peredhel, normally referred to as Master Elrond." Another reviewer almost echoed this same theory when they said: "Elrond is not a Noldor Lord." First ... to the reviewer that Elrond is not a Noldor Lord and that he was peredhel, normally referred to as Master Elrond. It was inferred by this statement that "peredhel" was another race of elves. "He is not a Noldor Lord, he is a peredhel." My reply: Peredhel is simply a word that means "half-elf" or "halfelven" and is not another race of elves nor is it a last name as elves do not have last names. And no, Elrond is not Noldor. His Grandmother, Idril was Noldor and his mother, Elwing, was listed as Teleri but if you research and read closely Elwing was technically 1/4 human, 1/8 Maia and 4/8 Teleri. I am having trouble tracing Elronds elven line. Finwë (Noldor) married Indis (Vanyar). There son was Fingolfin (1/2 Noldor, 1/2 Vanyar). Fingolfin married UNKNOWN and their son Turgon was 1/4 Noldor, 1/4 Vanyar and UNKNOWN from his mother. For the moment, until I can find out who Fingolfin's spouse was and who Turgon's spouse was I am going to assume (rightfully, I hope) that Indis was part Noldor and part Vanyar although of the particular percentages or of other races I am uncertain at the present time. For the moment will say that Earendil was reputed to be half human and half Noldor although there is Vanyar in there as well. So, Eäendil marries Elwing and by that fact would make Elrond (hopefully my math is correct - if not I will correct it later) 3/8 human, 1/16 Maiar, 1/4 Teleri and 5/16 of the missing elven (at least Vanyar and Noldor) blood on Eärendel's Mother's side of the family. OK. That takes care of the elven blood quantum and hence the "peredhel" issue. Now on to the matter of the Title of Noldor Lord of Imladris. Technically that title and/or term is correct, in that it can, and in my opinion does, infer that Elrond was Lord of the Noldor elves of Imladris and NOT that he was "a Noldor" elf who was Lord of Imladris. About the title of "Lord." As far as Elrond being a Lord, and I agree with this, in the book "Unfinished Tales" pg. 239, it said that Gil-galad gave Vilya to Elrond and appointed him as vice-regent which as defined in the dictionary states that "such a person rules in the absence of a sovereign." By this definition and fact, Elrond would have had the title "Lord." But also consider the fact that his grandmother was the daughter of the King of Gondolin and his mother was the daughter of the heir to the King of Doriath. So even by that reasoning, Elrond would have been worthy of the title of Lord. He ruled Imladris which would also make him worthy of the title of Lord. http://web.ukonline.co.uk/rwf.downing/lhigh.htm is an URL that will lead to a site which explains about the High Elves and also goes into more details about Elrond's ancesteral line and which backs up my research of descent and title. This is a quote from that particular site: "Defining the Elf-Lords is further complicated by exceptions. It might be assumed that Elrond is the senior Noldo left in Middle-earth; but although he behaves like a Noldo his line of descent is very mixed - see Elrond's Ancestral Line. He was appointed vice-regent of Eriador by Gil-galad in the Second Age and has ruled from Imladris under this authority ever since. And to the reviewer who said: "... one of these odd travellers is an elf and that two more are peredhel." Again there is the inference that "peredhel" is another race of elves - again ... wrong! Besides, if you want to get down to the brass tacks of things, if Elrond is only 3/8 human then his sons would be 3/16 human as we are only taking into consideration that Elrond was anywhere near half human and Celebrian, their mother carried no human blood. 3/16ths human is a loooooong way from being 1/2 human aka halfelven. To those who disputed my Tolkien facts and therefore my Tolkien knowledge I would say that I think I have earned "game and set." Do you want to concede the match? Hm? By the way, here is another URL that leads to some interesting information on Noldor elves. It is: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/rwf.downing/snoldor.htm

 

 

Re: Elrond's Title and Lineage

Alariel, I understand how the elven lineages and terminology can prove confusing. I haven’t read your story, so I don’t know the context in which you used the questioned terms, but I will try to address a couple of your canon issues. The Half-elven are not just the 50/50 offspring of any Elf/mortal marriage. From The Númenorean Kings, Appendix 1, RotK: ’The sons of Eärendil were Elros and Elrond, the Peredhil or Half-elven. In them alone the line of the heroic chieftains of the Edain in the First Age was preserved; and after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by their descendants. ‘At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which kindred they would belong. Elrond chose to be of Elven-kind, and became a master of wisdom. To him therefore was granted the same grace as to those of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth: that when weary at last of the mortal lands they could take ship from the Grey Havens and pass into the Uttermost West; and this grace continued after the change of the world. But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth. For Elrond, therefore, all chances of the War of the Ring were fraught with sorrow.’ So according to this quote, the Half-elven are Elrond and Elros, the children of Eärendil and Elwing, and the children of Elrond. Eärendil and Elwing both had one elven parent and one mortal parent – of very high and important lines. Elrond and Elros, of course, carried all the accumulated heritages, but are still Half-elven – because it is not a mathematical issue. Eärendil and Elwing, because of their specific lineages, the part they played in bringing the Silmaril back to Aman, and coming before the Valar representing the Children of Eru in their plea for help against Morgoth, were granted the right to make an irrevocable choice of which kindred they would belong to. As they both chose the life of the Eldar, the right to accept the Gift of Ilúvatar (mortality) was passed down to their children. Elros chose mortality, but Elrond didn’t – thus the right to choose mortality was passed down again to his children. So, it’s true the Half-elven are not a different ‘race’ of Elves – they are not exactly Elves at all. Though there are many similarities, there are also actually quite a few known differences between the Peredhil (Half-elven) and Elves and it is quite justified to say that Elrond was not an Elf, even though he chose to be numbered among them. Tolkien never referred to any of the Half-elven as Elves; in fact in this quote from Letters he states emphatically that ‘Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights.’ (from: Letter #345) You mention using the term ‘Lord of the Noldor Elves’ to mean ‘…that Elrond was Lord of the Noldor elves of Imladris and NOT that he was "a Noldor" elf who was Lord of Imladris.’ However, the term used that way could be misleading to readers and on that basis alone it might be better changed. Both Tolkien and his characters refer to Elrond as Elrond Half-elven or Master Elrond, and even though it might be logical to refer to him as the ‘Lord of Imladris’, it would seem that in spite of his illustrious lineage he did not take that title to himself and went instead simply by the title of Master. So from that standpoint I see no real need for using the term ‘Lord’ pertaining to Elrond if you are trying to stay close to canon. Also, since you have questions about specific reviewers’ comments you might also consider posting in the Request for Review Decisions forum. Ithildin *(

 

 

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