Henneth Annûn Story Archive

If you have a better idea for the name of this thread, please let me know! I have a question: What verb to you use with the object Last Stand? Should it be "Éomer Takes a Last Stand in the Battle of the Pelennor" or "Éomer Makes a Last Stand in the BoP"? Or... something else? - Barbara How about "Éomer Plants His Flag and Makes an Obscene Gesture at the Forces of Darkness"?

 

How about "Éomer Plants His Flag and Makes an Obscene Gesture at the Forces of Darkness"? I like that one, but it's a little too long to fit, alas. If you didn't want to make the choice, you could omit the verb and have "Éomer's last stand in the (at the?) Battle of Pelennor". Lyllyn

 

Someone (?Tanaqui) pointed out the different nomenclature for different couples. Any opinions on this? Lyllyn

 

If you didn't want to make the choice, you could omit the verb and have "Éomer's last stand in the (at the?) Battle of Pelennor". That was my first thought, then I changed my mind and wanted to include the verb... aw, heck, who needs verbs? I'm trying to make my entries consistent with each other (okay, laugh all you want, but it's a nice goal to have...), so I'm using "in" for a battle or war but "at" for a place, e.g. "Gandalf Obstructs the Witch-king at the City Gate in the Siege of Minas Tirith". Do you have any idea how many times I renamed that one until I was satisfied with the name? G Obstructs Wk at the Gate of Minas Tirith in the Battle of the Pelennor (oops, wrong battle)... G Obstructs Wk at the Gate of Minas Tirith in the Siege of Gondor (but, it's really the city that's being besieged here...) G Obstructs Wk at the Gate of Minas Tirith in the Siege of Minas Tirith (ummm, a tad bit redundant, maybe?) ... Well, you get the idea. Obsessive, me? Shhhh, don't tell anyone... - Barbara

 

Someone (?Tanaqui) pointed out the different nomenclature for different couples. Any opinions on this? Ummm, I'm sure I could come up with an opinion if I understood the question... What kind of couples? Sorry, I must be having an unusually dense day... - Barbara

 

Sorry, I didn't phrase this well, and the post title was needed to understand it. It was whether we need a standardized way to describe marriage or wedding. Differing nomenclature examples from Events: Marriage of Beren and Lúthien Aldarion and Erendis wed Elrond weds Celebrían Wedding of Elessar and Arwen Lyllyn

 

It was whether we need a standardized way to describe marriage or wedding. Yeah, I think we do. Reason being "wedding" and "marriage" will result in different alphabet placing. Then again, should something like marriage, birth and death follow the first letter of the event or the first letter of the person the event is about? ~Loqi

 

Marriage of Beren and Lúthien Aldarion and Erendis wed Elrond weds Celebrían Wedding of Elessar and Arwen Ahhh, now I understand! (Is there a post or a thread that I missed?) Yes, I have noticed that there is an "interesting" variety of nomenclature about weddings... I, personally, have been using the form "X Weds Y", which is short and sweet and it makes the entry sort under X's name (like when you are linking entries together, and the list is in true alphabetical order, not the order specified when we set a letter). The form "X and Y Wed" also accomplishes the same thing, but is slightly longer. The only problem with using a name as the first word in the title is that it is occasionally difficult to decide who to list first. Usually, it's the male, because Tolkien is a sexist pig um, because 99% of the people who hold honored positions in Tolkien's writing are male... but in the case of Théodwyn weds Éomund of Eastfold, I did it the opposite way because she is related to the king... That's my opinion, anyway. If we as a team decide on a nomenclature, I will change my entries (at least) to the format we choose. - Barbara

 

Then again, should something like marriage, birth and death follow the first letter of the event or the first letter of the person the event is about? ~Loqi Bingo! You hit the nail on the head. I believe that genealogical events of a given person should begin with that person's name... so it will sort under the first letter of the person the event is about. Thank you for stating so well what I was struggling to say... - Barbara

 

Okay, since the subject of consistent nomenclature is broached, I would like to expand it beyond just marriages. This is the nomenclature that I am using for genealogical events (I am working through the list of the Kings of Rohan, so forgive me if the Title and Realm are a little specific): X of Rohan Born X Weds Y X Becomes King of Rohan X, King of Rohan, Dies [at Place] [of Reason] X, King of Rohan, Slain [by Whom] [at Place] [in the Battle of Z] Usually no more than one of the clauses in brackets applies, but not always. [Edit:] And the clauses in brackets are *entirely* optional -- it is at the discretion of the person making the entry whether the info will go in the title, or solely in the body of the entry. What do you think? Do we want to set (informal) standards for nomenclature? If so, I would propose these as a starting point for discussion... I, personally, found it easier to enter genealogical events once I had decided upon a standard format for the title. - Barbara P.S. I think that any standards we decide upon should be applied with some judgement: for example: "Aragorn of Arnor Born" doesn't work for me, nor does "Aragorn of Gondor Born"... neither seems to quite fit in Aragorn's case.

 

I believe that genealogical events of a given person should begin with that person's name... so it will sort under the first letter of the person the event is about. It's what I did for the births and deaths, but since there are two names for a wedding... anyway, going under the male's name sounds good Barbara. What do you think? Do we want to set (informal) standards for nomenclature? If so, I would propose these as a starting point for discussion... For the kings of Arnor, I used: X of Arnor Born X becomes King of Arnor X King of Arnor dies (the reason of death is in the decription section) I, personally, found it easier to enter genealogical events once I had decided upon a standard format for the title. Yup, I have it all typed out.... it's only a matter of copying and pasting and changing the names. P.S. I think that any standards we decide upon should be applied with some judgement: for example: "Aragorn of Arnor Born" doesn't work for me, nor does "Aragorn of Gondor Born"... neither seems to quite fit in Aragorn's case. What about "Aragorn II of the North Born"? or "Aragorn II of the Dunedain Born"? Those are the two pending titles I want to use for the Chieftains of the Dunedain of the North. Or we could simply put "Aragorn Born", like I did for Elendil, Isildur, Anárion and Valandil. ~Loqi

 

It's what I did for the births and deaths, but since there are two names for a wedding... anyway, going under the male's name sounds good Barbara. Actually, I was being a tad sarcastic. What I really suggest is putting first the name of the person who either 1) has a higher position, or 2) we care more about, or 3) we have the most information about. [Of course, in Tolkien's works, almost all of the people who fit the criteria are male.] For example: 1) Théoden Weds Elfhild (if only we knew the date...) 2) (don't have a wedding example here) 3) Théodwyn weds Éomund of Eastfold (we have a full set of genealogical events for her, but no others for him) As an example for the concept in 2), even though it doesn't involve a wedding, I normally use "X Slain by Y" (e.g. Théoden, King of Rohan, Slain by the Witch-king in the Battle of the Pelennor), but I changed the pattern to "Y Slays X" for Théoden Slays the Chieftain of the Haradrim in the BotP, because, frankly, the only notable thing that the CotH ever did was to get offed by my hero, Théoden. X King of Arnor dies (the reason of death is in the decription section) The parts of the patterns that I put in square brackets are *entirely* optional -- sorry that I didn't make that clear. Putting the reason for death in the body instead of the title is perfectly fine. I put them in the title because I think it's interesting when browsing the whole timeline, especially when I'm trying to show the relations between events. For example, the aftermath of the War of the Dwarves and Orcs includes an entry for Orcs Trouble Rohan after the WotDO; I think it is significant that Walda, King of Rohan, is slain by Orcs during that period. What about "Aragorn II of the North Born"? or "Aragorn II of the Dunedain Born"? Those are the two pending titles I want to use for the Chieftains of the Dunedain of the North. ~Loqi My own preference would be the second, "Aragorn II of the Dúnedain Born" -- in other words, taking the cue from the hereditary title that they will assume... that's the same pattern that I used for "Eorl the Young of the Éothéod Born". It's using the name of the people whom that person will lead (as Chieftain of the Dúnedain or Lord of the Éothéod) instead of the place... which makes perfect sense to me. (In fact, if we used the title King of the Rohirrim instead of King of Rohan, I would have suggested "X of the Rohirrim Born".) - Barbara

 

Actually, I was being a tad sarcastic. What I really suggest is putting first the name of the person who either 1) has a higher position, or 2) we care more about, or 3) we have the most information about. Sarcastic or not, it'll probably work. ~Loqi

 

Does anyone know why the contents of my Resource Article, Notes on the Lineage of the House of Eorl, do not show up when doing a search from the Resources Home menu? If you do a search on "lineage", for example, the article should appear but doesn't... On the other hand, the most excellent article Calendars of Middle-earth does show up if you do a search on, say, "calendar"... There is a difference in the format of the HTML addresses, too, which I suspect is a symptom of the problem: Notes: ../stories/chapter.cfm?STID=3853 (this is what I get after going thru the Research Articles link, then Humans: Realms, then the article title.) Calendars: ../resources/articles_view.cfm?STID=461&SRID=35&SPOrdinal=1 It looks like they are not linked into the Resource Database the same way... - Barbara

 

Huh... I don't know much about how the articles are linked, but I think we had a different system before. The "Calendars" article is certainly a much older one. Not helping am I? ^^; ~Loqi

 

It's a very good question, adn I have no idea why. I'll convey the question to Ang. Lyllyn

 

Simple answer - the search only finds articles in General, not in Beta. Switch the status, and it should work. Lyllyn

 

Oh, I just love simple answers! But only when they're the applicable one for the question... *Sigh* The story already is in General status. - Barbara [Edit: ] I just double-checked: searched for the story from the Stories section, as well as getting it through the Resources section, and the story id is the same (3853) in both cases. So, Resources is pointing to a story that is in General status.

 

Sorry, you're absolutely right. And I thought it was going to be easy...I'll work with Ang on it and get back to you. I'll be gone for the next few days, so the answer may not come soon. Lyllyn

 

Thanks, Lyllyn! No rush... - Barbara

 

I just added Timeline Event number 500. Woohoo! *Barbara throws a handful of confetti in the air.* - Barbara

 

*Barbara throws a handful of confetti in the air.* Lyllyn joins Barbara in manic celebration.

 

I just added Timeline Event number 500. Woohoo! YAAAAAAAAY! *Loqi hugs everyone in sight* ~Loqi

 

*Barbara throws a handful of confetti in the air.* Good work, Barbara. *Ness adds some balloons and streamers to the festivities.* ~Nessime

 

Oh my, Lyllyn, you really didn't have to mention me by name! And in public! **Very, very, very deep red blush** - Barbara

 

Oh my, Lyllyn, you really didn't have to mention me by name! And in public! But you deserved it! You did so much work! ~Loqi

 

I've always liked the color red. Seriously, I've admired all you've done, and been particularly grateful since I deserted the field when I became SM. Which is not to denigrate Loqi's contribution either... Lyllyn

 

Entirely deserved, and then some! Ang

 

**Very, very, very deep red blush**

Well earned recognition. The work you've done is very much appreciated - and you've done a pretty good job with PR over at HA too, I've noticed. ~Nessime

 

Aw, gee, you guys... Thank you! It's been a tremendous pleasure to work with each of you, and I look forward to continuing to do so... *Returning now to trying to vacuum the confetti from the shag carpeting. Note to self: Next time, do like Nessime and use streamers and balloons instead of confetti...* - Barbara

 

I'm going to list the entry/entries that I stumble across while going through all the Things entries here, the ones that don't have a citation. Maybe we should think about what to do with them (if anything), but for now I'll just list them... - Barbara [removed Aranrúth -- thank you, Loqi, for adding a quote & citation!] [removed Adûnaic -- thank you, Liz!] Markirya Poem (has an Ardalambion citation for (presumably) the translation, but no citation for the poem itself)

 

Did we decide that named animals belong in Bios, whereas unnamed ones belong in Things? If so, should we switch Ancalagon the Black over? It's an older entry, probably from well before we discussed the issue... (Lyllyn, if you agree, I'll switch it over for you...) - Barbara [Edit:] Done. And the link above has been updated.

 

Did we decide that named animals belong in Bios, whereas unnamed ones belong in Things? Yup, I think we decided that a long time ago. As for the quote-less entries, I just added a quote about Aranrúth from the Unfinished Tales. Someone else will have to find something from the Silmarillion as I don't have the book with me. There might be something about Anduniac in Appendix F, the one about languages. ~Loqi

 

Did we decide that named animals belong in Bios, whereas unnamed ones belong in Things? Yup, I think we decided that a long time ago. Good - if I don't hear an objection from Lyllyn (it's her entry) by the time I finish checking the Things formats, I'll switch Ancalagon over. As for the quote-less entries, I just added a quote about Aranrúth from the Unfinished Tales. Thanks, Loqi! I've taken Aranrúth off the list of citationless entries... - Barbara One letter ('A') down, 25 to go...

 

Thanks, Loqi! I've taken Aranrúth off the list of citationless entries... You're welcome! One letter ('A') down, 25 to go... I'm wondering about this... Are you just checking the "Things" section or do you plan to check other catagories as well? Do you plan to make a list of all entries quoteless? It sounds like a pretty big task. ~Loqi

 

I'm wondering about this... Are you just checking the "Things" section or do you plan to check other catagories as well? I'm just checking the format of the Things section (only 205 entries) because the change that I asked Ang to make caused line breaks to multiply as rapidly as nuzgûl. Do you plan to make a list of all entries quoteless? It sounds like a pretty big task. No, these are just questions that I stumbled across while going through Things... I'm not *that* crazy, thankyouverymuch... - Barbara

 

I'm just checking the format of the Things section (only 205 entries) because the change that I asked Ang to make caused line breaks to multiply as rapidly as nuzgûl. Ah ok. That explains all. I'm not *that* crazy, thankyouverymuch... Are you sure? At the rate you're crunching those entires out... ~Loqi

 

Thanks for changing Ancalagon over, good to stay consistent. Sorry for the delay - I was traveling and had no access for days. Lyllyn

 

Thanks for changing Ancalagon over, good to stay consistent. You're welcome. (Haven't done it yet, but I will.) - Barbara P.S. Welcome back!

 

This is an excerpt from a message on the HA list by Elliska67, who joined HASA because of a comment I made on the SOA list (wish I could remember what I was touting at the time...). (Posted with her permission): Hi, I'm practically brand new to this group. I joined a few weeks ago because someone on the Stories of Arda group who is also a member here referenced a piece of research archived here that I wanted to read. The reference section is really the only thing I've ever looked at here. (It's great by the way). ... Her second message will follow... - Barbara

 

Here is Elliska67's second message in its entirety; it is her reply to my request to post the last one: Elena Tiriel--Absolutely pass on my comments to any of the volunteers. Here are some more for you: It is an absolutely wonderful resource. Since joining only two weeks or so ago, just paging through the articles there, I have made three new story outlines and made significant changes to already written stories just based on ideas inspired by that resource. The best thing about it is: it is accurate, not semi-accurate or mostly accurate, or somewhat accurate. I always look at stuff I know really well already in new resources (ex--I'll look at anything on Mirkwood's history) and see how many errors I find to judge whether I'm going to trust the info in the resource. I found absolutely zero errors in this resource and I can't say that about anything else online. I am a big canon freak (not that I'm a slave to it in my stories, but when I violate canon, I know I am doing it and I'm doing it for a good reason). So that is really important to me. I really love this resource. And by the way, it was one of your articles I joined to read and your post in the SoA group that led me here, so--thank you very much! Her messages sure brightened my day, considerably! (And I thanked her profusely...) - Barbara

 

Some more feedback from Lady Masterblott, also posted with her permission (again, an excerpt of her longer message): While posting over at the discussion board, it came to my mind that I (like most of my fellow countryppl, but that is no excuse) am very eager to criticise and equally eager to give the impression that I'd take something extraordinary for granted... Truth be told: As I don't actually WRITE Tolkien fanfiction, I have limited (but not no) use for the resources . I think I was there about twice, three times before, ever since they existed. However - I'd like to have you know that for me, they are one of the most outstanding features of HASA and _the_ (note: not one of many, the main) reason to recommend this site to any aspiring author of Tolkien fanfiction I accidentally come upon who does not know it yet. (Yes, those ppl exist. ;) ). It's gorgeous and excellently maintained. I wish I had a similar thing for certain other periods of history I am busy with writing about. Honestly. Margit I feel like we have received an abundance of riches today! - Barbara

 

I'd like to thank Kitt of Lindon, who added Bios for all the missing Dwarves from Thorin Oakenshield's company on the Quest of Erebor! I linked them all to the Quest of Erebor entry, using the sideline links. Thanks, Kitt! - Barbara

 

Umm, help! I was following the trail of breadcrumbs from the Bio of Mîm the Petty-dwarf that I'm working on, and wanted to add an entry for Gorthol, the name that Túrin took as one of the Two Captains in the land of Dor-Cúarthol (see below for the references I've gathered). Anyway, I realised Gorthol is not a place, thing or event. So this ought to go in Túrin's bio and I will put it there (and *sigh* I guess that means I'm going to feel the need to track down references to all his other names) but.... I wanted to link from the reference to Gorthol in my bio of Mîm. So, do I just link to Turin's bio? Is there any way I can link directly to the Gorthol section? Or any other place I can enter Gorthol as a separate entry? Edit: Barbara - looking at some of your entries, I see you're using anchors to create "menus" and jump to places within an entry. So I could do that. Are there any rules or preferred styles for naming anchors? Barbara, Loqi, Lyllyn....? Help!!!! Confuzzled, Liz *** Gorthol ('Dread Helm' ) the name that Túrin took as one of the Two Captains in the land of Dor-Cúarthol. The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion Index of Names Thus Beleg returned once more to Túrin […] and with him he brought out of Dimbar the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin. […] Túrin put on again the Helm of Hador; and far and wide in Beleriand the whisper went, under wood and over stream and through the passes of the hills, saying that the Helm and Bow that had fallen in Dimbar had arisen again beyond hope. […] Túrin named himself anew, Gorthol, the Dread Helm, and his heart was high again. […] Then Morgoth laughed, for now by the Dragon-helm was Húrin's son revealed to him again The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Ch 21, Of Túrin Turambar

 

Hi Liz! Got your question, but there's an HTML thing I want to look up [edit: ] and test before answering it all (but yes, I would put Gorthol into Túrin's bio - the name in the "Other Names" box, and then your quote in the text (assuming you won't be including it in another section already -- say, History?)... BTW, nice hyperlinks! And I will give you the HTML template to create a Table of Contents for the categories that I use for Bios (also have templates for Wars and for Roads, in case you're ever interested...) - Barbara

 

I got here too late; I'm glad to see answers in progress already. And I just read the nice compliments - thanks so much for posting those! Lyllyn

 

So this ought to go in Túrin's bio and I will put it there (and *sigh* I guess that means I'm going to feel the need to track down references to all his other names) but.... Welcome to the never-ending job of the Research addict... I wanted to link from the reference to Gorthol in my bio of Mîm. So, do I just link to Turin's bio? Is there any way I can link directly to the Gorthol section? Or any other place I can enter Gorthol as a separate entry? Yes, you can link directly to a section within Túrin's Bio, if you have used linkable section titles (for example, you could have a section called "The Many Names of Túrin Turambar"). Link to it using the technique described here: Hyperlinking to a section within another entry. Barbara - looking at some of your entries, I see you're using anchors to create "menus" and jump to places within an entry. So I could do that. Are there any rules or preferred styles for naming anchors? I created a template for Character Bios with the standard section titles that I use (and their anchors) [which aren't really rules but more like guidelines -- if you know what I mean!], which you can find here: TOC - Character Bio. (If you ever get interested in entering Roads (Places) or Wars/Battles/Invasions/etc. (Events), let me know -- I have generalized templates for them, too.) (These templates are in the thread: Useful Tools & Templates, which also includes a template for Numbered and hyperlinked footnotes.) Let me know if you have any questions! - Barbara

 

And I just read the nice compliments - thanks so much for posting those! Lyllyn You're welcome! Those were *such* nice compliments... I just glowed with pleasure for the rest of the day! - Barbara

 

Hi Barbara Thanks for the templates - saved me some work remembering properly from scratch how to do it. The reference to Gorthol now links to a "Túrin's Names" section in the Túrin bio. Which only has one cited name in it at the moment, but I'm sure that'll change.... Welcome to the never-ending job of the Research addict... Yep, too many "oh, but I could just add that in" moments. BTW, I saw there's a need to do an entry for Nogrod (there's one for Belegost), so I'll get round to it at some point. Also, I saw looking back through the thread that you were looking for citations for the Adûnaic entry. As I'm going to have to trawl through Appendix F and the relevant volumes of HoMe for languages for petty-dwarves and all the races of Man I'm doing, I'll track something down for it at the same time. Gah, it's actually safer in Challenges than hanging out here, isn't it? Cheers, Liz

 

Thanks for the templates - saved me some work remembering properly from scratch how to do it. You're welcome. Yeah, that's exactly why I saved them as template files. The reference to Gorthol now links to a "Túrin's Names" section in the Túrin bio. Which only has one cited name in it at the moment, but I'm sure that'll change.... Great! BTW, I saw there's a need to do an entry for Nogrod (there's one for Belegost), so I'll get round to it at some point. Excellent! Also, I saw looking back through the thread that you were looking for citations for the Adûnaic entry. As I'm going to have to trawl through Appendix F and the relevant volumes of HoMe for languages for petty-dwarves and all the races of Man I'm doing, I'll track something down for it at the same time. Super! (And you'll probably end up finding something else -- completely unrelated to anything you were looking up -- and then think "Well, we can't just ignore this cool stuff, can we?"...) Gah, it's actually safer in Challenges than hanging out here, isn't it? An hour ago, I would have agreed with you -- unfortunately, I just succumbed to the overwhelming urge to write my first limerick for the Limerickfest.. - Barbara, who now has "ta DUH DUH ta DUH DUH ta DUH" swirling through her head...

 

Hi, If you know anyone in the US who wants to get the History of Middle-earth Index, Nilmandra posted a US site that sells it: Tolkientown.com When I bought mine from amazon.co.uk, the shipping cost to the US nearly doubled the price of the book. - Barbara

 

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