Forum: Reference Library - entries, requests, etc.

Discussing: Races of Men - for the Character Bios - Thread 1 (old)

Races of Men - for the Character Bios - Thread 1 (old)

Hi everyone! Liz started a stampede to add entries about Tolkien's different Races of people to the Character Bios. This thread is about the Races of Men. In this post, I will present my proposal for the different races of Men that Tolkien wrote about; in the next post, I'll keep track of who has volunteered to create an entry describing that Race (and which ones are already done). Note that by Races, I am trying to make distinctions between the major categories based upon *bloodlines*, given certain constraints: - Sometimes, Tolkien doesn't tell us enough about a race -- e.g. the Variags of Khand (e.g. I can't tell whether they are related to the Easterlings or not). - Sometimes, practical constraints dictate a distinction: that's why I separated Dúnedain-related races from Rohirrim-related races, even though they are distantly related to the ancestors of the Edain (the Dúnedain are extremely familiar to every Tolkien fan, but most of the good background on the Northmen/Rohirrim peoples comes only from Unfinished Tales, which is much less widely-read). - Some races have mixed bloodlines (e.g. the Bree-men apparently started out related to Edain, but quickly and thoroughly mixed themselves up with the Dunlendings); we just have to pick the most closely-related category for them. With the disclaimers about the inexactness of categorizing having been done, what I'd like is to have feedback from everyone. Have I missed any races? Do any of them seem to be miscategorized? Here is my proposed list of Races of Men for which we would like Bio entries: (Note: if a race has a question mark behind it, it is because I think it deserves an explicit mention, but that mention might be wrapped up in the entry for the race above it.) ----- ET's Proposed Races of Men ----- (for the Race entries in the Bios section) Revised: 8 Dec 04 --- Dúnedain & Related Races --- Edain - House of Bëor/Bëorians - Haladin of Brethil/Folk of Haleth/Halethrim - House of Hador of Dor-lómin/Hadorians Númenóreans (inc. Black Númenóreans) Dúnedain - Dúnedain of the North (Rangers of the North) - Gondorians --- Rohirrim & Related Races --- Rohirrim Northmen of Rhovanion Éothéod Beornings Woodmen? Bardings Men of Laketown? --- Dunlendings & Related Races --- Dunlendings Hill-men? Breelanders Men of the White Mountains (inc. Lebennin, Ethir Anduin?) Dead of Dunharrow? --- Haradrim & Related Races --- Haradrim/Southrons/Swertings Corsairs of Umbar --- Easterlings & Related Races --- Easterlings Wainriders? Balchoth? --- Other Races --- Drúedain/Púkel-men/Woses Lossoth/Snowmen of Forochel/Forodwaith Variags of Khand - Barbara

 

 

Races of Men - Volunteers

Hi, The current list of volunteers has moved to this post: Races of Men -Volunteers in the continuation thread. - Barbara

 

 

Re: Races of Men - Volunteers

Hi Babara The list looks good! And some entries are even "Done". DONE: Dúnedain DONE?: - Dúnedain of the North DONE?: - Gondorians You have "Dúnedain of the North" as Done?, but I'm not sure where, since I can only see a Dúnedain bio (or is it folded into that)? If we need more, we should probably go and smile sweetly at Gwynnyd again, since she has all sorts of fascinating ideas about the Northern Dúnedain.... I agree Gondorians needs more work. The research article is mostly about Gondorians at the time of the war; we could definitely do with more quotations actually in the bio for "description" and about their "origins"; I suspect more timeline events can be added, too. As I'm the Gondor obsessive around here, I'll take on adding to the bio and revising my essay. Cheers, Liz Edit: PS: I saw your reply about Bór and Ulfang - don't you just hate it when you know there's a quotation but you can't remember where?

 

 

Re: Races of Men - Volunteers

You have "Dúnedain of the North" as Done?, but I'm not sure where, since I can only see a Dúnedain bio (or is it folded into that)? Sorry, I'll change Dúnedain of the North to blank. The truth is, I just saw that there was a Dúnedain entry and, given how long it is, was too lazy to read it. So, I just assumed it covered DotN. If we need more, we should probably go and smile sweetly at Gwynnyd again, since she has all sorts of fascinating ideas about the Northern Dúnedain.... Great. Will you contact her and ask if she has any quotes to share? Or maybe she would be willing to write the entry for us? I agree Gondorians needs more work. The research article is mostly about Gondorians at the time of the war; we could definitely do with more quotations actually in the bio for "description" and about their "origins"; I suspect more timeline events can be added, too. As I'm the Gondor obsessive around here, I'll take on adding to the bio and revising my essay. Great! I was going to suggest two things: - We should decide on what information the Races entries should contain (if available, of course)... if you like, I'll start a thread on this (to make it visible to our vast hordes of volunteers ), and I'll also create a Races template. - Maybe we should go back and check all the existing entries to see whether they need any additional info. Since you'll take Gondorians, I'll check the Rohirrim entry when I work on the Northmen & Éothéod entries, and of course I'll check my own existing entries for Beornings and Bardings. Oh, and I'll also check Haradrim, since I might be able to garner info/inspiration for the Corsairs. Edit: PS: I saw your reply about Bór and Ulfang - don't you just hate it when you know there's a quotation but you can't remember where? Yeah! And the worst part is, I remember thinking that it would be a perfect quote for an Easterlings entry. But I didn't save it! - Barbara

 

 

Re: Races of Men - Volunteers

The truth is, I just saw that there was a Dúnedain entry and, given how long it is, was too lazy to read it. So, I just assumed it covered DotN. Having another skim through, it seems to cover Dúnedain and Númenoreans, since the two terms are synonymous, but with the distinction that Dúnedain tends to be used for those in "mainland" Middle-Earth and Númenoreans for those born in Númenor. So we might want to have some kind of joint Dúnedain/Númenoreans entry (not sure what to call it....) at the top level, with Númenoreans, Dúnedain of the North (Arnor, Arthedain/Cardolan/Rhudaur and Chieftains) and Gondorians as subsections, like the three houses of the Edain? If we need more, we should probably go and smile sweetly at Gwynnyd again, since she has all sorts of fascinating ideas about the Northern Dúnedain.... Great. Will you contact her and ask if she has any quotes to share? Or maybe she would be willing to write the entry for us? As I believe she's offered to trawl for more quotes for the Aragorn bio, maybe I can persuade her to look for general Dúnedain of the North stuff at the same time. (And thanks for your feedback on the Aragorn bio, most useful.) We should decide on what information the Races entries should contain (if available, of course)... if you like, I'll start a thread on this (to make it visible to our vast hordes of volunteers ), and I'll also create a Races template.< I've commented over at the other thread. Hmm, what vast hordes of volunteers....? Maybe we should go back and check all the existing entries to see whether they need any additional info. Since you'll take Gondorians, I'll check the Rohirrim entry when I work on the Northmen & Éothéod entries, and of course I'll check my own existing entries for Beornings and Bardings. Oh, and I'll also check Haradrim, since I might be able to garner info/inspiration for the Corsairs.< Agreed! And the worst part is, I remember thinking that it would be a perfect quote for an Easterlings entry. But I didn't save it! Guess you won't make that mistake again? Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Races of Men - Volunteers

So we might want to have some kind of joint Dúnedain/Númenoreans entry (not sure what to call it....) at the top level, with Númenoreans, Dúnedain of the North (Arnor, Arthedain/Cardolan/Rhudaur and Chieftains) and Gondorians as subsections, like the three houses of the Edain? I originally separated Edain, Númenóreans, and Dúnedain because I thought there would be a *lot* of information about each, particularly in the History section. If you want, I will put question marks after Ns and Ds. (BTW, I removed my name from Númenóreans -- if someone else wants it, please take it! And that goes for Edain as well, except that I do have some quotes that I'd be most willing to pass along...) But I think that whoever ends up doing (re-doing?) the entries should have final say in how they are done -- as long as the different types we identified receive some sort of mention. How does that sound? Hmm, what vast hordes of volunteers....? I'm hoping that, by removing my name from the first category, we might encourage more volunteers... (Of course, when all is said and done, I'll do those entries if no one else does...) Guess you won't make that mistake again? I sure hope not! (I'm beginning to wonder if my mind made it all up...) - Barbara

 

 

Re: Races of Men - Volunteers

I think that whoever ends up doing (re-doing?) the entries should have final say in how they are done -- as long as the different types we identified receive some sort of mention. How does that sound? That sounds good! I think they're so interrelated that they would benefit from being written/revised as a group - not necessarily by one person but perhaps by two or three people who co-ordinate what goes in each entry and how they fit together. Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Races of Men - Volunteers

I think that whoever ends up doing (re-doing?) the entries should have final say in how they are done -- as long as the different types we identified receive some sort of mention. How does that sound? That sounds good! I think they're so interrelated that they would benefit from being written/revised as a group - not necessarily by one person but perhaps by two or three people who co-ordinate what goes in each entry and how they fit together. I am wondering about this. The information in the character bios are usually contributed by more than one person. For those races that already have an entry, does redoing it mean that we edit out the originally information? Do we incooperate it in the entry in a different format (ie. following the template)? And do we ask for permission from the original contributer? ~Loqi

 

 

Re: Races of Men - Volunteers

I think they're so interrelated that they would benefit from being written/revised as a group - not necessarily by one person but perhaps by two or three people who co-ordinate what goes in each entry and how they fit together. I definitely agree, and that is the ideal case, if possible... but I've re-thought what I said before: I think we *do* need separate entries for Edain, Númenóreans, and Dúnedain (and, of course, the entries should all be linked together), because they are so well-represented in Tolkien's writings. (And, as mentioned before, I am willing to compile the Edain and Númenórean entries if no one else wants to.) However, I don't think it's a terrible problem if the entries overlap, if it turns out that some existing race entries might not be revised. I'd rather have the same quotes in multiple places than have users that can't find the information they're looking for. Does that make sense? We should coordinate to the degree we can, and not sweat it if the result is imperfect. - Barbara

 

 

Re: Races of Men - Volunteers

I've been thinking about it some more as well. It's good to be able to thrash these things out from different viewpoints. I think what "bothers" me is not the duplication of quotes in different entries (which may be entirely necessary), but the duplication of effort by researchers. There's plenty enough to do as it is without the same people doing the same "behind the scenes" work! (This is why I love Barbara's spreadsheets - and send her back new entries when I occasionally come across them.) I think Barbara and I work in a similar (if not identical) way: we try to pull together all possible relevant quotes (copying whole paragraphs and even sections) and then select and arrange them into an entry (or six!). Along the way, we tend to find quotations for other related things (which is why one entry breeds another six). So, if someone has combed through and found all quotations relating to the House of Hador, say, it's likely their "raw material" also contains a lot of quotations relating to the other two houses. I think it would be helpful for different researchers working on allied areas to at least co-ordinate and share their "background" work? Of course, it could just be that Barbara has brainwashed me into thinking that her sending me information so I do an entry and she doesn't have to is a good idea.... Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Races of Men - Volunteers

The information in the character bios are usually contributed by more than one person. For those races that already have an entry, does redoing it mean that we edit out the originally information? Sorry, but "re-doing" was a poor choice of words. Earlier in this thread I said "Maybe we should go back and check all the existing entries to see whether they need any additional info." That's all I meant by re-doing: possibly augmenting, but never deleting someone else's hard work. [Unless, for example, we are trying to coordinate entries (as Liz suggested) and we have the contributor's participation or permission to modify the entry. ] [Or by accident: I clobbered Lyllyn's Giant Spiders entry and spent the next week creating a new one. Talking about a scary bio... Fortunately, "Feeding Habits" is not a commonly-required section.] I do an awful lot of Resource Library entries, usually in concentrated spurts when I have the time and attention... In general, these are the things that I *will* do to other contributor's entries without asking permission (it's late and I'm really tired -- but will be too busy with RL the next few days to discuss things like this -- so I hope I don't explain these badly): - add additional quotes - add hyperlinks to existing quotes (only because I've used the same quotes in another entry, so that I've already done the work of inserting the hyperlinks) - delete an existing quote if (and only if) I replace it with a new quote, nearly always a superset of the original quote (or, once, I replaced a sentence [not a quote] saying something like "HoME mentions X" with a quote from LoTR that stated "X" explicitly) - add new section headings (usually because I'm adding a bunch of new quotes) and move existing quotes under the proper headings (this would only apply to entries that do not already have some sort of organization; if there are already section headings, I work with them [maybe adding some] rather than change them -- see the entry for Bilbo Baggins for an example) - correct obvious typographical errors Even if one of the above situations holds, I would not make a change if I thought it would somehow damage either the integrity of the entry or the intent of the original contributor. (That's never come up before, but I wanted to make it clear...) What about a factual error? These arise occasionally, usually in either paraphrased or essay-like text. If I see a factual error, I post a proposed correction on the Pending Resource Library Corrections thread and wait for official blessing before correcting it. Presumably, if I'm wrong, someone will tell me. (Okay, I broke this rule once recently: someone on the HA Mailing List mentioned that one of our entries was incorrect (a river flowed uphill ), and I replied that I would fix it immediately -- and I did, without waiting for agreement. I've tried to informally extol the virtues of the HASA Resource Library on the HA and SoA lists, and wanted to maintain confidence in the library's credibility.) I hope I came close to answering your questions, Loqi. It will probably be a few days before I can get back here, so it will be a bit before I can respond if you have more questions or concerns. For those who celebrate it, Happy Thanksgiving! - Barbara

 

 

Re: Races of Men - Volunteers

Here are my thoughts (for what they're worth!) on updating exsting entries. I've not thought about it as much as Barbara (I've not done as many entries!), but I personally wouldn't have any objections to Barbara doing any of the things she mentions to "my" entries. I hope that through the "Contributors'" box we can ensure people receive the appropriate credit for their work. In the couple of existing entries I have worked on, I've not felt the need to delete anything written by anyone else. My feeling is that it wouldn't ever be necessary to delete anything, unless something really does seem to be factually incorrect. Barbara's approach of checking in the Pending Resource Library Corrections thread seems like a good one in those cases. However, what I have done is both add more quotes and tried to make sure it's clear what comes from Tolkien and what is "commentary" or "summation" by a researcher. (I try to do that in new entries as well.) In the Adûnaic entry, for instance, I put square brackets about Zimraphel's existing (and extremely good!) summary, and added quotes that provided the evidence for what was said in the summary. The impression I get is that, with easier access to electronic versions of the texts, the "style" of research library entries has evolved over the past couple of years to become more quotation-based and less based around researcher summaries. Yet I certainly wouldn't want us to delete the existing summaries and commentaries, which often include valuable insights and connections. For instance, there's a very nice biographical summary in the bio of Erendis, put together by Lyllyn and/or Cuthalion, which makes it really easy to understand the events in her life. But I'll admit I did have a moment's confusion reading this, because of the formatting, as to which were Tolkien's words (or perhaps Christopher Tolkien's commentary) and which were the researchers' summary. So my tentative suggestion would be that if we were updating an entry like this, we shouldn't delete any of this excellent work, but we should find a way to try to make it clear that it is a researcher summary and not from the "sources". (And that we either add quotes separately to support the summary or maybe find a way to interpolate them at relevant points?) What does everyone else think? Cheers, Liz PS And I don't celebrate Thanksgiving, but Happy Thanksgiving to all those who do!

 

 

Re: Races of Men - Volunteers

I agree with everything -- and very nicely said, Liz! - Barbara, sneaking in to get her fix even though she's supposed to be doing more important RL sorts of things...

 

 

Re: On quotations

I hope I came close to answering your questions, Loqi. Thanks! You certainly did more than that Barbara. My concerns were not as deep as your explainations. They were very clear and reasonable, and I have no trouble agreeing with them. And thanks for your comments Liz, I agree with them as well. My brain is spawning another concern though. It is off-topic as I think the bio entries will probably never run into this issue, but it is about the quotes. I agree whole-heartedly with the fact that every entry needs a quote. But when I was doing the brith and death of the Kings of Arnor [edit: for the timelines], I sometimes have no quotes to add to their entry at all. In fact there is no quote to speak of as the dates of birth/death are listed. I still type out where I got the information, but it is not directly quoted from those pages. It's the reason why I add quotation marks around the actual quotes. I'm not sure if I'm making sense here (it's late and I'm brain-dead), or if this is an issue at all and I'm just making something big out of nothing. I can't even pinpoint what I'm trying to say here... I guess, just what we should do in a situation like this. ~Loqi PS. Happy Thanksgiving to those who celebrate! We Canadians had ours a month ago. And I probably won't be on the net for probably a couple of days (RL and my teachers hate me), and it's possible that I won't have much time to deal with bio entries until the holidays. But I'll try! [Edited for typo and spelling errors.]

 

 

Re: Races of Men - Volunteers

I'm hoping that, by removing my name from the first category, we might encourage more volunteers... You are evil, you know that? If I'm not so busy with RL, I would put the Dunedain of the North under consideration. By the way, most of the quotes in the Haradrim entry are mine, so if you want to change its format please feel free to do so. In fact, I think only the last bit was Lyllyn's, transfered from the Haradwaith entry. ~Loqi

 

 

Re: Races of Men - Volunteers

Hi Loqi If I'm not so busy with RL, I would put the Dunedain of the North under consideration. I currently have Gwynnyd going through LotR for quotes for the Aragorn bio and she's pulling out general Dunedain stuff as well, so we may be able to give you (or whoever does do this) a bit of a head start on assembling the raw materials. Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Races of Men - Volunteers

I currently have Gwynnyd going through LotR for quotes for the Aragorn bio and she's pulling out general Dunedain stuff as well, so we may be able to give you (or whoever does do this) a bit of a head start on assembling the raw materials. Excellent! *in my most convincing imitation of the creepy boss-guy -- whose name I forgot -- from the Simpsons* BTW, I added (Rangers of the North) to the Dúnedain of the North entry -- I have seen people equate these two, so it would be good to mention that the Rangers are the warriors of the DotN... - Barbara

 

 

Re: Races of Men - Volunteers

By the way, most of the quotes in the Haradrim entry are mine, so if you want to change its format please feel free to do so. Thanks, Loqi! It will take me a while to get to the Haradrim (going to focus on adding new entries first), but I appreciate the thought... - Barbara

 

 

Re: On quotations

Did I ever answer this? Sorry that I overlooked it... I agree whole-heartedly with the fact that every entry needs a quote. But when I was doing the brith and death of the Kings of Arnor [edit: for the timelines], I sometimes have no quotes to add to their entry at all. In fact there is no quote to speak of as the dates of birth/death are listed. Yeah, I know what you mean. It's frustrating. For the Arathorn II of the Dúnedain Born entry, I had a LoTR Tale of Years quote establishing when he died, and another quote saying that he was sixty years old when he died. Not very satisfying! But then I realized that there are quotes (sometimes just one line with the relevant dates) in the "Heirs of Elendil" chapter of the Peoples of Middle-earth, HoME 12, so I added that, after checking that the death date matched the ToY. (One problem with HoME is that Tolkien changed his mind about the spelling of people's names; where I want to avoid unnecessary confusion, I use the current spelling in brackets, like I did in that entry with [Gilraen].) But if there is truly no quote you can use, I think it's fine to state the genealogical event as you do, e.g.: Birth of Aragorn II son of Arathorn II and Gilraen, Heir of Isildur, Chieftain of the Dúnedain, later King Elessar. - Barbara P.S. Which brings up a somewhat related question: I've been adding the genealogical quotes and/or events for Arathorn II to the database, and some of the quotes were useful for Aragorn. I added a Tale of Years quote and some hyperlinks to your entry for "Aragorn born". But I did something else that I wanted to check with you: I changed the entry title to "Aragorn II born", hoping that someday we'll add Aragorn I's genealogical events to the database. Hope you don't mind... Also, have you thought any more about using the form: "Aragorn II of the Dúnedain born"? That's how I did Arathorn II's birth, but I wondered whether you had decided for or against using that form? Or not decided? - Barbara

 

 

Re: On quotations

Hi Loqi, Barbara Sorry it's taken me a while to reply on this. I was trying to get my thoughts in some sort of order. My take on the "quotes" issue is that I want to be able to include referenced evidence that shows this was what Tolkien wrote (and it's not simply what the researcher misremembered, mis-summarised or simply theorised). So people coming to the HASA reference library can be confident it's accurate or challenge us if they think we're wrong - and know that they can challenge us! A good example is a conversation Barbara and I had a week or so ago about Denethor's bio and his siblings. At the moment, the bio indicates he had younger brothers (which IMHO is correct) but the quote from HoMe that supports this hasn't been included in the bio (it's on my to-do list). So I often use stuff like Tale of Years entries, Silm index entries and so on, just as much as descriptive passages, to show where the information comes from. Does that make sense? Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: On quotations

I'm behind also, but I'll toss in my 2 cents. I'm 100% in favor of quotes, whenever possible, and of referencing everything. I think there are times for narratives, when pulling together complicated material from several sources, and I agree those should be clearly indicated and sourced. For instance, there's a very nice biographical summary in the bio of Erendis, put together by Lyllyn and/or Cuthalion, which makes it really easy to understand the events in her life. But I'll admit I did have a moment's confusion reading this, because of the formatting, as to which were Tolkien's words (or perhaps Christopher Tolkien's commentary) and which were the researchers' summary. I thank you for those kind words, but I shuddered when I went back and read it - I can do a much better job now! (And I will, unless someone else has already spoken for it.) Lyllyn

 

 

Re: On quotations

My take on the "quotes" issue is that I want to be able to include referenced evidence that shows this was what Tolkien wrote... Absolutely! So people coming to the HASA reference library can be confident it's accurate or challenge us if they think we're wrong ... At the moment, [Denethor's] bio indicates he had younger brothers ... but the quote from HoMe that supports this hasn't been included in the bio [yet]... A good point, Liz. Do you also think that we should include quotes to support, say, Meanings (like I just did in Ancalagon the Black, in the Etymology section)? What about non-controversial items, like Sam's children? Do we need to include quotes for them, too? [I'm not talking about Lily, who is only listed in PoME, but the ones that appear in the LoTR Genealogies...] So I often use stuff like Tale of Years entries, Silm index entries and so on, just as much as descriptive passages, to show where the information comes from. Definitely! The Silm and UT Indices, for example, are a real wealth of information! When I do a Place entry, I often start with the UT Index entry as a model for the short "Location" field (which I use as a short description), then sometimes expand it very slightly. Does that make sense? Yup... - Barbara

 

 

Re: On quotations

I'm 100% in favor of quotes, whenever possible, and of referencing everything. Good! I think there are times for narratives, when pulling together complicated material from several sources, and I agree those should be clearly indicated and sourced. I'm beginning to believe that (for new entries) larger narratives belong in Research Articles, which should be linked to the appropriate Bio entry... I thank you for those kind words, but I shuddered when I went back and read it - I can do a much better job now! (And I will, unless someone else has already spoken for it.) LOL! It's amazing how much we learn by doing! I look at my first entries, and am embarrassed that there isn't a single in-text hyperlink! You're welcome to Erendis... someday I'll fix Beornings and Bardings... - Barbara

 

 

Re: On quotations

Do you also think that we should include quotes to support, say, Meanings (like I just did in Ancalagon the Black, in the Etymology section)? Only if you're going for "scary bio" status? I'd probably be less concerned about referencing meanings that are fairly easily deducible from entries in the names or elements indices in the Silm, or which are used in the quotations. For example Dor-Cúarthol is referred to in the supporting quotation as "the Land of Bow and Helm". I'd be more concerned about names that are translations from languages other than Sindarin or where you need HoMe volumes. An example is the meaning of "(Levain) Tad-dail" as an alternative name for Petty Dwarves. Oh dear, that's a really woolly answer! What about non-controversial items, like Sam's children? Do we need to include quotes for them, too? [I'm not talking about Lily, who is only listed in PoME, but the ones that appear in the LoTR Genealogies...] I think your mention of "non-controversial" is the key. I'm not going to dissuade anybody from including any quote but, again, I'd most concerned about seeing references for anything that can't obviously be determined from reading The Hobbit, LotR or the Silm. To harp back to it, the number of Denethor's siblings is mentioned in HoMe 12 but LotR is silent on the matter. However, I wouldn't feel a strong need to include quotes to prove Rose Cotton had brothers called Tom, Jolly, Nick and Nibs unless I was quoting relevant passages about them anyway. Err, do you have any more questions I can ramble on about in an unsatisfactory way? I'm beginning to believe that (for new entries) larger narratives belong in Research Articles, which should be linked to the appropriate Bio entry... Yes, I'm inclining to that view as well! But I'm fine with narratives as long as it's clear to the reader what is "researcher narrative" and what is "Tolkien (or other) source". And, Lyllyn, please don't let us stop you updating the Erendis bio. You may want to look at the hyperlinked timeline I'm doing for Aragorn for inspiration....? Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: On quotations

And, Lyllyn, please don't let us stop you updating the Erendis bio. You may want to look at the hyperlinked timeline I'm doing for Aragorn for inspiration....? You are an evil, evil woman - yes, it is inspiring! However I am now mired in a more comprehensive entry for Anglachel Gurthang, and am adapting Barbara's bio template for it. Lyllyn

 

 

Re: On quotations

You are an evil, evil woman - yes, it is inspiring! *cackles* But I'm hoist with my own petard, as Gwynyyd has just sent me a load more stuff to add to it.... However I am now mired in a more comprehensive entry for Anglachel Gurthang, and am adapting Barbara's bio template for it. Well, it's definitely a sword with a personality..... Have fun! Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: On quotations

I'm not going to dissuade anybody from including any quote but, again, I'd most concerned about seeing references for anything that can't obviously be determined from reading The Hobbit, LotR or the Silm. To harp back to it, the number of Denethor's siblings is mentioned in HoMe 12 but LotR is silent on the matter. However, I wouldn't feel a strong need to include quotes to prove Rose Cotton had brothers called Tom, Jolly, Nick and Nibs unless I was quoting relevant passages about them anyway. Excellent... and I agree fully. (And I think that covers your answer about the Meanings, too.) But I'm fine with narratives as long as it's clear to the reader what is "researcher narrative" and what is "Tolkien (or other) source". Absolutely! Err, do you have any more questions I can ramble on about in an unsatisfactory way? Not at this moment... - Barbara

 

 

Re: On quotations

However, I wouldn't feel a strong need to include quotes to prove Rose Cotton had brothers called Tom, Jolly, Nick and Nibs unless I was quoting relevant passages about them anyway. Ummm, by the way, the Rose Cotton bio now contains quotes... including her brothers' names. (Well, it is so romantic that Sam was thinking about her while in Mordor...) And just exactly why did you have to put a link to an entry that was desperately crying out for quotes? Huh? - Barbara

 

 

Re: On quotations

As I can't think at all right now (when they dumped me projects, they didn't say there's a flu in the packet too ), I'll have to respond to your thoughtful answers on quotations later. But from what I've read, it answered my questions completely and I agree to everything you guys said. Thank you so much! I added a Tale of Years quote and some hyperlinks to your entry for "Aragorn born". Excellent! Now it'll have pretty colours... Aragorn deserves pretty colours. Thanks! But I did something else that I wanted to check with you: I changed the entry title to "Aragorn II born", hoping that someday we'll add Aragorn I's genealogical events to the database. Hope you don't mind... Mind? Of course not! It's a good thing you changed it to Aragorn II. I plan to add all the Chieftain's genealogical events sooner or later (probably later *sigh*). Also, have you thought any more about using the form: "Aragorn II of the Dúnedain born"? That's how I did Arathorn II's birth, but I wondered whether you had decided for or against using that form? Or not decided? I think we had a discussion about this a while back. It was either this form or "Aragorn II of the Dunedain of the North Born". I think either one's fine. One does narrow it down further than the other, but since the people of Gondor has a term of their own, we don't have to worry about possible confusions between the two groups. So "Aragorn II of the Dunedain born" is fine, and I'll be using that form. Sorry, that was a rather longwinded explaination when a simple yes or no would've done the job. Hope I made sense. ~Loqi P.S. Can you send me your spreadsheets? Both citations and links? Thanks! [edit: address removed] P.P.S. I think I read somewhere that someone's trying to lure Lyllyn into doing an Elves race bio (is it you Liz?)... Whoever you are, please continue your effort Honestly Lyllyn, please do visit the the Races of Elves discussion, there has been no volunteers so far...

 

 

Re: On quotations

I think I read somewhere that someone's trying to lure Lyllyn into doing an Elves race bio (is it you Liz?)... Whoever you are, please continue your effort Honestly Lyllyn, please do visit the the Races of Elves discussion, there has been no volunteers so far.. Sorry, Loqi, I have Erendis to redo, and then Barbara noted I had become entangled in Weapons and slipped me several weapons quotes. We'll have to keep dangling this in front of elf-lovers... Lyllyn

 

 

Re: On quotations

And just exactly why did you have to put a link to an entry that was desperately crying out for quotes? Huh? Actually, I didn't intend that at all. I originally had a Gondorian example (naturally!) - do we really need to document where Tolkien says Boromir and Faramir are brothers - and then realised it was a really bad one, as there's a lot of great appendices material about them that makes the relationship clear! So I was casting around for anothe example. I'm not even sure I checked the bio out first. But really, it was entirely accidental. Unlike Barbara noted I had become entangled in Weapons and slipped me several weapons quotes. You're too good at that And I swear those hyperlinks are the sole cause of my need to produce 10 entries for every original idea. Anyway, well done for add the quotations to the Rose Cotton bio! Encouragingly yours in fellow obsessiveness Liz

 

 

Re: On quotations

But really, it was entirely accidental. Unlike Barbara noted I had become entangled in Weapons and slipped me several weapons quotes. You're too good at that And I swear those hyperlinks are the sole cause of my need to produce 10 entries for every original idea. ROTFLOL! It's so nice that I'm not the only one who has noticed the intoxicating effect of quotes and links... - Barbara P.S. Speaking of intoxicated, I'm really having a hard time with my Resources Muse. I keep sitting down, pulling up my "WIP Tidbits - Easterlings" file, and trying to start an entry -- but, somehow, I always manage to get sidetracked on something else that will be "short and easy"... my mind is focusing, but not on what I want it to focus on! Like a drunk person trying to get from point A to point B, and visiting all the other points NOT in between instead...

 

 

Re: On quotations

Speaking of intoxicated, I'm really having a hard time with my Resources Muse. I keep sitting down, pulling up my "WIP Tidbits - Easterlings" file, and trying to start an entry -- but, somehow, I always manage to get sidetracked on something else that will be "short and easy"... my mind is focusing, but not on what I want it to focus on! Like a drunk person trying to get from point A to point B, and visiting all the other points NOT in between instead... This sounds familiar - sometimes facing long entries I'll go for something more compact. Erendis is proving that sort. There's a terrible temptation to just quote everything, which is the whole blasted story of Aldarion and Erendis. I put forth the argument that this is the justification for a summary, then quotes. I did that with Anglachel - does it work? Lyllyn

 

 

Re: On quotations

There's a terrible temptation to just quote everything, which is the whole blasted story of Aldarion and Erendis. And that's a problem, how? I put forth the argument that this is the justification for a summary, then quotes. I did that with Anglachel - does it work? Yes, after a few moments of getting used to it, I think it is clear what is summary and what are quotes, and the sections seem well-chosen. I was a little disconcerted at first by not seeing citations at the end of each quote (section break), but I see now that you put them at the end. One comment: I think you're missing a {/blockquote> tag at the end of the Table of Contents -- the whole entry is blockquoted currently. Looks good! - Barbara

 

 

Re: On quotations

One comment: I think you're missing a {/blockquote> tag at the end of the Table of Contents -- the whole entry is blockquoted currently. Thanks - now fixed. I was a little disconcerted at first by not seeing citations at the end of each quote (section break), but I see now that you put them at the end. Did that seem too confusing? I do that when everything is from the same source, but is too much of a variation? Lyllyn

 

 

Re: On quotations

Did that seem too confusing? I do that when everything is from the same source, but is too much of a variation? I think it's reassuring to see the citation next to each quote (even if they all turn out to be the same source), but that's just my opinion. Anyone else have thoughts on this? - Barbara

 

 

Re: On quotations

Lyllyn wrote: Erendis is proving that sort. There's a terrible temptation to just quote everything, which is the whole blasted story of Aldarion and Erendis. I put forth the argument that this is the justification for a summary, then quotes. I did that with Anglachel - does it work? Very nice - it definitely works, although (picky, picky....) Barbara and I have been putting "editorial/commentary" inside square brackets [so] and not putting quotation marks around the quotes. What might also work extremely well for Erendis (please don't hit me!) is to create timeline events and then link to them from the bio? This would also give you much of an Aldarion bio as well. This is partly what I'm doing with the Aragorn bio and what I did with Nogrod and the Thingol stuff. Barbara wrote: I was a little disconcerted at first by not seeing citations at the end of each quote (section break), but I see now that you put them at the end. Lyllyn wrote: Did that seem too confusing? I do that when everything is from the same source, but is too much of a variation? It might be less confusing if you put the notes about the sources at the beginning of the entry? Also, I think because I wasn't sure of the sources, that also added to me being less than clear about what was source and what was commentary. That and skim reading it very quickly! Hope that helps Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Races of Men - for the Character Bios

Variags (from Khand) are done. I would appreciate any feedback (although there isn't enough information to use the standard template). - Barbara

 

 

Re: Races of Men - for the Character Bios

It looks good! The only nitpick is that the date for "Between the Battle against the Wainriders at Dagorlad and the Invasion of Gondor by Wainriders and Haradrim" is bolded, and the date for "Battle of the Pelennor" is not. Lyllyn

 

 

Re: On quotations

Lyllyn wrote: Erendis is proving that sort. There's a terrible temptation to just quote everything, which is the whole blasted story of Aldarion and Erendis. I put forth the argument that this is the justification for a summary, then quotes. I did that with Anglachel - does it work? Very nice - it definitely works, although (picky, picky....) Barbara and I have been putting "editorial/commentary" inside square brackets [so] and not putting quotation marks around the quotes. I've fixed that, but I do have some concern - will the non resource!geeks who use this realize they are all quotes? What might also work extremely well for Erendis (please don't hit me!) is to create timeline events and then link to them from the bio? This would also give you much of an Aldarion bio as well. Arrgh! [runs screaming] Actually, I've had to create a chronology to organize it, and I'm sticking quotes under dates. So this could eventually turn into timeline events. It might be less confusing if you put the notes about the sources at the beginning of the entry? Also, I think because I wasn't sure of the sources, that also added to me being less than clear about what was source and what was commentary. That and skim reading it very quickly! I've put the note at the top. If it still seems 'off' I'll put citations after each - let me know! Should we get a 'naive' user to fieldtest this for us? Lyllyn

 

 

Re: On quotations

Arrgh! [runs screaming] Actually, I've had to create a chronology to organize it, and I'm sticking quotes under dates. So this could eventually turn into timeline events. Sorry! What I was thinking was that if you did the timeline events, the "history" part of the bio pretty much reduces to hyperlinks pointing to them? Just a thought, anyway Should we get a 'naive' user to fieldtest this for us? Good idea! Is it even worth getting them to look at entries done in different ways and see which they find clearest. (As we are trying to standardise a little, it makes sense to choose the right standards....) Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Races of Men - for the Character Bios

the date for "Between the Battle against the Wainriders at Dagorlad and the Invasion of Gondor by Wainriders and Haradrim" is bolded, and the date for "Battle of the Pelennor" is not. Fixed! Thanks, Lyllyn! - Barbara

 

 

Re: On quotations

will the non resource!geeks who use this realize they are all quotes? That's one of the reasons that I like the citations to appear immediately below the quotes -- it's a rather large cue that the above text is, indeed, a quote... Actually, I've had to create a chronology to organize it, and I'm sticking quotes under dates. So this could eventually turn into timeline events. Don't let our, er, um, enthusiasm scare you off ... putting the quotes in the Bio first gets them into the database, and you can consider putting them into separate Events later... [Edit:] That's one of the advantages of using text files -- they can be copied and sliced and diced so many different ways... I've put the note at the top. If it still seems 'off' I'll put citations after each - let me know! That's definitely better, but I personally still prefer each quote to have its own citation... Should we get a 'naive' user to fieldtest this for us? Sure! Any thoughts on how to hijack one? - Barbara

 

 

Re: On quotations

Don't let our, er, um, enthusiasm scare you off ... Me, uh, scared? Yup! [Edit:] That's one of the advantages of using text files -- they can be copied and sliced and diced so many different ways... Definitely. It's how one entry turns into several: the place, the event, the bio... Should we get a 'naive' user to fieldtest this for us? Sure! Any thoughts on how to hijack one? We can put it up in Resource announcements, and if that doesn't catch anyone's eye, it can go up into the main announcement space after the current one has been up for a while. Any other methods are fine too, .

 

 

Re: Races of Men - for the Character Bios

The Easterlings/Wainriders/Balchoth entry is done. Will work on Northmen next... mmmmm, valiant, strong, blond horsemen... Feedback appreciated... - Barbara P.S. Also added Gil-Estel: the Star of Eärendil.

 

 

Re: Races of Men - for the Character Bios

I added an entry for Men (in general, to correspond with the Dwarves and Elves and Hobbits entries...) It is merely an hors d'oeuvre -- I just wanted to get something in the db to link to from my other entries. If anyone wants to add anything, *please* be my guest! It includes a section on Races of Men, which has the same list I proposed at the beginning of this thread, with links to the completed entries. - Barbara

 

 

Easterlings/Wainriders/Balchoth

*whistle* Fantastic stuff, Barbara! Am in awe of the amount of linking. Addition, perhaps: on HA, there's been exchanges about the term shieldmaiden, referring to Eowyn. Someone mentioned that the Wainriders have a tradition of shieldmaidens as well, and I don't see that quote in this bio, and I think that's pretty notable. Ah! Just found the quote on my hard drive! Their youths and old men were aided by the younger women, who in that people were also trained in arms and fought fiercely in defense of their homes and their children. ~Unfinished Tales I am reasonably sure that it's in the chapter about Cirion and Eorl. Always, Allie PS- Thanks for adding Gil-Estel!

 

 

Re: Easterlings/Wainriders/ Balchoth

Hi Allie! Fantastic stuff, Barbara! Am in awe of the amount of linking. Thanks! It was a lot of material, but I think I finally tamed it... Addition, perhaps: on HA, there's been exchanges about the term shieldmaiden, referring to Eowyn. Someone mentioned that the Wainriders have a tradition of shieldmaidens as well, and I don't see that quote in this bio, and I think that's pretty notable. Yes, I just saw that on the list, and sent the quote (obviously long after you and Nessime and whoever else did... should have read the whole thread first... but I never have the patience). (BTW, the quote is in Northmen of Rhovanion Revolt against the Wainriders, which you can find easily from the Wars with the Wainriders: Overview entry. In fact, you can always find any of the major wars/battles that I've (obsessively) entered by searching for "Overview" (use the capital 'O') in the Resources section.) And thanks for the suggestion: I will add that quote to the Skills section -- it is definitely notable! [Edit:] Done. PS- Thanks for adding Gil-Estel! You're welcome! See -- nuzgûls fly both ways in Resources! (And I changed the name to "Gil-Estel - The Star of Eärendil" for clarity.) - Barbara

 

 

Re: Races of Men - for the Character Bios

Hi Barbara Sorry it's taken me a few days to look at the entries for Easterlings and Men generally. My, these are very impressive. (The Easterlings bio is "beyond scary"!) Congratulations! You may want to create sidelinks as well as in-text links for the entries? The only quibble that leapt out at me when I was looking through is the mention of Easterling languages - there's supposed to be a strong dwarvish influence on all Mannish languages (see the entry on Adûnaic). I guess it's more that the Edain and their descendants had an Elvish influence added to their original language that the Easterlings never had? Anyway, very well done! Hmm, I suppose I need to track down those Men of the White Mountains and Druedain now. Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Races of Men - for the Character Bios

My, these are very impressive. (The Easterlings bio is "beyond scary"!) Congratulations! Thanks, Liz! *beams* You may want to create sidelinks as well as in-text links for the entries? Thanks for reminding me. I usually leave that to last, after I finish an entry (and I'm still tweaking Easterlings ), but sometimes I forget... The only quibble that leapt out at me when I was looking through is the mention of Easterling languages - there's supposed to be a strong dwarvish influence on all Mannish languages (see the entry on Adûnaic). I guess it's more that the Edain and their descendants had an Elvish influence added to their original language that the Easterlings never had? Hmmm, I suspect you're right about that last conjecture... In an entry that's focusing on Easterlings, do you think it's important to mention that Khuzdul influenced non-Easterling Mannish tongues, also? I didn't, but I'm open to persuasion... Hmm, I suppose I need to track down those Men of the White Mountains and Druedain now. I'm interested to see what (if anything) you do with that quote I sent you yesterday about the Dunlendings... and I'm beginning to wonder about the origins of the Men of the White Mountains, too -- could they be remnants of the Edain that went south rather than west into Eriador and Beleriand in the First Age? (I found a nice quote for such origins of the Northmen of Rhovanion, but have never seen anything nearly so informative regarding the White Mtns men.) Whoooaaa! I just had a strange thought: what if the Men of the White Mtns were originally a group that split off from the folk of Haleth, and they met the Drûedain there rather than in Beleriand? If a friendship developed between those peoples in the White Mtns, that might explain the Púkel-men at Dunharrow: maybe the Drûgs put them there in friendship with the MotWM, rather than the MotWM taking over an older holy site(?) of the Drûedain, or stealing the P-M from the nearby Drûgs... so much speculation, so little canon to work with... - Barbara

 

 

Re: Races of Men - for the Character Bios

In an entry that's focusing on Easterlings, do you think it's important to mention that Khuzdul influenced non-Easterling Mannish tongues, also? I didn't, but I'm open to persuasion... Well, I think it's important not to give a false impression that only Easterling Mannish tongues were influenced bu Khuzdul? Maybe you could just throw in a brief reference to the Adunaic and Westron entries or something? I'm interested to see what (if anything) you do with that quote I sent you yesterday about the Dunlendings... You mean, apart from bury my head in my hands about how I'm ever going to sort that lot out? I was starting to wonder along the same lines about the Drûgs, P-M and MotWM myself.... I guess a lot of patient reading through the sources, ending up with a mass of quotes and trying to sort them out is ahead of me. Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Races of Men - for the Character Bios

Hi Liz, I'm not sure how I missed this post, but sorry that I haven't responded yet... Well, I think it's important not to give a false impression that only Easterling Mannish tongues were influenced bu Khuzdul? Maybe you could just throw in a brief reference to the Adunaic and Westron entries or something? Hmmm, let me think about how to do this and get back to you... You mean, apart from bury my head in my hands about how I'm ever going to sort that lot out? I understand... BTW, I've finished the Northmen of Rhovanion and Éothéod (People) (as opposed to Éothéod (Land)) entries, except that I'm going to REmove all the History from the Northmen that belong to the Éothéod (1851-2510 III) and to the Rohirrim (2510 on), once I copy the appropriate history to the Rohirrim entry. I'll probably work on revising Rohirrim next, which I will use as an excuse to fill in some events that are missing... I put in some (truly pathetic) placeholders for Battle of the Hornburg and Battle of the Morannon, but there's a couple more missing battles, at least... at least the Kin-strife is finally finished. - Barbara

 

 

Added Temporary Entry for Dunlendings

Hi Liz, I added a quick-and-dirty entry for Dunlendings, just so I'd have something to link to in all the Rohan history events that I'm working on. When you are ready to do the real entry, please feel free to replace this one, and remove my name from the Contributor field. Sorry! - Barbara P.S. Did you see my Púkel-men of Dunharrow entry? I added the "of Dunharrow" to the name to make sure it was clear that the entry was about the statues, not the real Drúedain people. Or, rather, the fictionally real Drúedain people.

 

 

Re: Added Temporary Entry for Dunlendings

Hi Barbara Thanks for the heads up. I am working myself up to actually doing some of these entries, honest! I'll probably do the Druedain one first, as I think that may help me get a handle on the hideous MotWM tangle. Did you see my Púkel-men of Dunharrow entry? I just took a look at this. Very nice - but for some reason it seems to be lacking any line breaks.... (And when I do the Druedain entry, I'll link the two entries.) Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Added Temporary Entry for Dunlendings

I am working myself up to actually doing some of these entries, honest! Far be it from me (who has been, um, "working" on the nice, shiny, future Rohirrim entry for over a month) to rush anyone else! I'll probably do the Druedain one first, as I think that may help me get a handle on the hideous MotWM tangle. Good! The Dunlending entry is just a place-holder until you begin work on the real one... but there's enough to stand alone until then. (I just *love* the UT Index!) BTW, I noticed that the Dunlendings are frequently referred to as "hillmen" (e.g. see Erkenbrand Shows Mercy to the Dunlending Prisoners after the Battle of the Hornburg Thus Earning Him a Slightly Bigger and More Laudatory Biography in the HASA Resources Library entry); maybe it's not a stretch to consider the hill-men of Angmar (or whatever they're really called) to also be related to the MotWM? (My sympathy on the MotWM tangle... I was overwhelmed by the amount of info I had on the Northmen of Rhovanion, but at least it was all clear and consistent...) I just took a look at this. Very nice - but for some reason it seems to be lacking any line breaks.... Eeeek! Is it still lacking line breaks? If so, you should report it as a bug to Ang. When I view it, the many line breaks are intact. I can't imagine how ugly it would be as one long paragraph... - Barbara

 

 

Re: Added Temporary Entry for Dunlendings

Far be it from me (who has been, um, "working" on the nice, shiny, future Rohirrim entry for over a month) to rush anyone else! Well, I did just go and find all the relevant quotes and copy and paste them into a Word file, so now I just have to edit and arrange.... BTW, I noticed that the Dunlendings are frequently referred to as "hillmen" (e.g. see Erkenbrand Shows Mercy to the Dunlending Prisoners after the Battle of the Hornburg Thus Earning Him a Slightly Bigger and More Laudatory Biography in the HASA Resources Library entry); maybe it's not a stretch to consider the hill-men of Angmar (or whatever they're really called) to also be related to the MotWM? They may be... perhaps it will become clear when I do a really detailed trawl throught HoMe? (And I just love your ridiculously long titles for events ) Eeeek! Is it still lacking line breaks? Er, no. *blushes* I've mostly been signed into the development server recently and didn't realise that Ang hadn't updated the "Things" code over there. I just checked signed in on the live server and it looks fine. *crawls back under rock* Cheers, Liz

 

 

Drúedain entry progresses at last

I'm working on my Drúedain bio entry and wanted to give a heads up that I'm also planning to create: * a Timeline Event for "Aragorn cedes the Drúadan Forest to the Drúedain". Barbara, this is part of the trip to accompany Theoden's funeral cortege. Do you have any kind of overview or have you done any other events relating to that? (I noticed that there was a new "Aragorn Regains the Keys of Orthanc" entry so I wanted to check if you were working on any other entries around that time period.) * a Place entry for Andrast/Ras Morthil (Lyllyn, both names are on your list) * A Things - Songs and Stories entry for "The Faithful Stone" (the story about the Drúadan in the essay in UT) * and, what the heck, a bio for Ghân-buri-Ghân, the Drúedain headman. (If I could do one for Telchar, I should do one for Ghân, since we probably know slightly more about him....) There may be other entries as well - I thoroughly expect to find at least 10 related new entries for every primary entry I need to do. These are just the ones I've spotted at this point! Barbara, I've found some more Citations to add to your list - I'll send them along (with any new links) once I'm done. And a plea for help! Can any kind soul with the Atlas of Middle-earth give me a rough idea of how far it is from where the Rohirrim are camped around Eilenach Beacon to the Grey Wood where the end of the Stonewain Valley comes back to the main road? (I'm trying to indicate how impressive Ghân-buri-Ghân's claim is that the Wild Men could walk it between sunrise and noon.) Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Drúedain entry progresses at last

* a Timeline Event for "Aragorn cedes the Drúadan Forest to the Drúedain". Barbara, this is part of the trip to accompany Theoden's funeral cortege. Do you have any kind of overview or have you done any other events relating to that? (I noticed that there was a new "Aragorn Regains the Keys of Orthanc" entry so I wanted to check if you were working on any other entries around that time period.) No, I wasn't planning on any entries related to the funeral cortege... and, to date, have only planned on doing overviews for military events (manly men bashing each other -- of course, some of the men are Elves or Dwarves or Wizards or Balrogs or...). Of course, I wasn't planning on doing a "Keys of Orthanc" entry, nor the related "Aragorn receives the keys of Orthanc" entry... these just happened (it's magic!) because I was going to change Isengard to Rohan, and also add a note about Gondor's overlordship, and then thought that I'd copy some stuff from the Northmen of Rhovanion entry to create a History for Isengard, and realized that I had previously documented the early changes of "ownership", but not the final one, and... You seem to understand (only too well) how this disease progresses... * a Place entry for Andrast/Ras Morthil (Lyllyn, both names are on your list) Good! I'm going to expand upon the Battles of the Fords of Isen, and one of the quotes that I squirreled away (and have been itching to use) is about the Drúedain harassing the defeated forces of Saruman in the Drúwaith Iaur -- I think it mentions Andrast, so it will be nice to have a link... and, what the heck, a bio for Ghân-buri-Ghân, the Drúedain headman. Cool! I was wishing we had a Bio for him... but tried hard not to get distracted... (occasionally, it works). Let me get back to you shortly about the distance from Eilenach to the Grey Wood... - Barbara

 

 

Re: Drúedain entry progresses at last

Can any kind soul with the Atlas of Middle-earth give me a rough idea of how far it is from where the Rohirrim are camped around Eilenach Beacon to the Grey Wood where the end of the Stonewain Valley comes back to the main road? (I'm trying to indicate how impressive Ghân-buri-Ghân's claim is that the Wild Men could walk it between sunrise and noon.) "Wild man could walk from here to Dîn between sunrise and noon" Presuming that he is talking about walking a straight line, it looks like it's about 20 miles between their campsite at Eilenach and Amon Dîn. "Still many men in in camp beyond Dîn, an hour's walk yonder..." It looks like it is about 8-9 miles to Amon Dîn from their campsite in the Grey Wood. Now, in terms of the actual journey (via the Stonewain Valley) that GbG walked with the Rohirrim, the Atlas estimates that it was about 50 miles, and that it took about 10 hours, or 5mph. (But, that's from the first rider leaving Eilenach to the 6000th rider arriving at the Grey Wood. The first rider probably arrived at the destination an hour or maybe two before the 6000th, since they had to go single file at the entrance and exit of SW Valley. So, the actual speed of GbG would have been greater than 5mph.) Geeky enough for you? - Barbara

 

 

Re: Drúedain entry progresses at last

* a Timeline Event for "Aragorn cedes the Drúadan Forest to the Drúedain" No, I wasn't planning on any entries related to the funeral cortege... OK, not stepping on any toes then. Not sure I'm likely to fill in any more events around that time right now, but I guess at some point someone could. Edit 2: OK, I lied again. It seems silly not to do entries for the funeral escort leaving Minas Tirith and arriving at Edoras, as I'm using those events to define the date of Aragorn cedings the Drúadan Forest to the Drúedain. And it ties in with the entry we have for the funeral itself. Argghh, I do indeed understand how these things snowball out of control.... * a Place entry for Andrast/Ras Morthil (Lyllyn, both names are on your list) Good! I'm going to expand upon the Battles of the Fords of Isen, and one of the quotes that I squirreled away (and have been itching to use) is about the Drúedain harassing the defeated forces of Saruman in the Drúwaith Iaur -- I think it mentions Andrast, so it will be nice to have a link... Yes, that quote is in my Druedain entry as well. Which is now up in a very rough form, because I need to see it laid out differently than in Word to check that it has the right order to the quotes before I put all the inline links in. a bio for Ghân-buri-Ghân, the Drúedain headman. Cool! I was wishing we had a Bio for him... Really? Well I shall oblige you then! And I can link to your events for the Ride of the Rohirrim. Let me get back to you shortly about the distance from Eilenach to the Grey Wood... Thanks for the details, most helpful Also, I came across a second story about the Drúedain, to go with The Faithful Stone. I've provisionally called it The Drûg Stone Carver - does that sound OK? (And, woot! I added Thing #300 there!) Still working on creating all the entries. I will let you have links when I'm done. Edit And I realised I really need to put in at least a brief entry to the Haladin of Brethil, as they are referred to so often. But that doesn't necessarily mean I'm volunteeting to do all the First Age Edain bios! Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Drúedain entry progresses at last

It seems silly not to do entries for the funeral escort leaving Minas Tirith and arriving at Edoras, as I'm using those events to define the date of Aragorn cedings the Drúadan Forest to the Drúedain. And it ties in with the entry we have for the funeral itself. Argghh, I do indeed understand how these things snowball out of control.... LOL! I'm glad you're adding these! I'll try to read all your lovely new entries in the next day or so... BTW, may I make a little suggestion about the title "Aragorn Cedes the Forest of Drúadan to the Drúedain"? I tend to think of "ceding" territory as something done by a country, whereas Aragorn is a person (of course, acting as the ruler of that country). May I suggest "Aragorn Grants..."? It sounds more personal, but also more, um, generous in spirit... This is a tiny nitpick, and I might be totally off-the-wall here, so do with the suggestion as you please... Also, I came across a second story about the Drúedain, to go with The Faithful Stone. I've provisionally called it The Drûg Stone Carver - does that sound OK? Excellent! I did read that entry, and The Drûg Stone Carver sounds like an appropriate title (better than, say, The Drûg Door-stop... ) So, it sounds like the Púkel-men of Dunharrow were likely carved by Drúedain, not carved by someone else in a likeness of the Drúedain... (And, woot! I added Thing #300 there!) Congratulations! Woohoo! We are on a roll... Edit And I realised I really need to put in at least a brief entry to the Haladin of Brethil, as they are referred to so often. But that doesn't necessarily mean I'm volunteeting to do all the First Age Edain bios! LOL! So you needed the Haladin like I needed the Dunlendings! At this point, I am slightly more interested in doing the Three Houses of the Edain than the Númenóreans or whoever else Dúnedainish we need... got some quotes squirreled away. But it's going to take me a while (at the rate I'm going) to do the Rohirrim, and then I want to do the Corsairs, the Beornings/Woodmen, and the Bardings/Laketown Men first... And I haven't even begun to think about the Elves yet...

 

 

Re: Drúedain entry completed

.... along with all the rest that proved so necessary along the way. Drúedain Haladin of Brethil Ghân-buri-Ghân House of Hador The Faithful Stone The Drûg Stone Carver Aragorn Grants the Forest of Drúadan to the Drúedain King Théoden’s Funeral Escort Sets out from Minas Tirith King Théoden’s Funeral Escort Arrives at Edoras Andrast Crossings of Teiglin Barbara, I will be sending you the updates for your spreadsheets shortly. BTW, may I make a little suggestion about the title "Aragorn Cedes the Forest of Drúadan to the Drúedain"? I tend to think of "ceding" territory as something done by a country, whereas Aragorn is a person (of course, acting as the ruler of that country). May I suggest "Aragorn Grants..."? You may. I'm not at all good at naming Events, even with the help of your naming conventions, and really struggled with that one. As you will see, it has been changed. So you needed the Haladin like I needed the Dunlendings! And then I needed the House of Hador too. And I very nearly needed the People of Bëor, but as we didn't even have an entry for Bëor, I managed to restrain myself. I also updated the Men entry. Can you update the list in the forum showing which entries have been completed or volunteered for? (Also may be worth starting a "Races of Men for bios - part 2" thread, as this one is quite long, and copying the volunteer list over as the first post?) I still need to add sidelinks to all these entries, but I'm going to collapse in a corner for a bit - and try and ignore that nagging voice that's pointing out to me all the places in Beleriand that we still need entries for.... Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Drúedain entry completed

House of Hador Whoa! This is terrific! I realized that I needed one for the Northmen of Rhovanion bios, and I had started to pull together a quick-and-dirty entry for them (like the Dunlendings entry), but you beat me to it! Yay! (If you don't mind, I'll add a quote from the Index saying how Dor-lómin was given to them...) And, since you've been so nice , I'll throw together a q&d House of Bëor entry. May I suggest "Aragorn Grants..."? You may. ... As you will see, it has been changed. Thank you! (You are referring, of course, to my Entish naming conventions?) I also updated the Men entry. Thank you! And I'll do what you suggest about the threads tonight... (Edit: and I'll officially re-volunteer for (expanding) the Three Houses of the Edain.) I still need to add sidelinks to all these entries, but I'm going to collapse in a corner for a bit Well-deserved! Have a mug of hot chocolate, or whatever you prefer (a cup of tea? a half-pint? a magnum of champagne?) and try and ignore that nagging voice that's pointing out to me all the places in Beleriand that we still need entries for.... *commiserates* I just added 8 events concerning the Three Hunters' visit to Edoras to my to-do list... how does this happen? Why couldn't we have chosen Harry Potter, say, instead of Tolkien to analyze? - Barbara [Edit:] P.S. added the House of Bëor and a few quotes to the other two houses of Edain... Including the "nth House of the Edain" to the Other Names field... since I could never keep them straight without looking in my Genealogies...

 

 

Re: Drúedain entry completed

Aragorn Grants the Forest of Drúadan to the Drúedain Since you didn't throttle me for my first picky suggestion, may I make another? "Drúadan Forest" is used often (5 times in RoTK + the Appendices), whereas "Forest of Drúadan" is used only once (unfortunately, in the description of the event you were recording...) I'd like to suggest using the more commonly-used version -- which also happens to be shorter in this case! -- in titles... I've struggled with the same problem with people's names in titles of events -- I know that Tolkien was trying not to bore us by sometimes using different variations of Merry and Pippin's names in the Tale of Years, but I'm always using "Merry" and "Pippin" in my event titles, so that the poor user who's trying to search only needs to search on the most common variation... (doesn't apply to Drúadan, of course...) - Barbara P.S. Sorry I didn't mention this before...

 

 

Continue this thread...

As Liz pointed out, this thread was getting too long, so I started a continuation thread here. - Barbara

 

 

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