Henneth Annûn Story Archive

As the old thread reached 50 posts, I thought it was a good idea to start a new one to stop the thread taking forever to load. Barbara, I added a quote to the Adûnaic entry. It probably needs more work, as Zimraphel's text mentioned it had a little Khuzdul mixed in as well. I was wondering if you'd noticed any references to that in your readings to find out about the Easterlings? Of course, the net result of chasing this quote down is that I can see a need for entries for other languages such as Westron and Khuzdul, while the Quenya entry needs a quote. So... I may be heading off on a languages "kick" at some point as well Unless anyone else wants this one? *hopefully holds out cute, cuddly "languages" nuzgul with only a little blood on its fangs* Cheers, Liz

 

A "process" post - The admin access has been reorganized, so resource access now will go through the main admin page. A little incovenient for us, but much more central for most admins, and as I understand it, much more secure. Lyllyn

 

I have no clue whether this is the right place for this announcement ... I have added a biography for Arvedui but set it to 'bio in progress' status. I haven't included many quotes, since most quotes are already included in the database under the various events. Maybe one of the resource-savvy folk could have a look at it? Cheers, fliewatuet

 

Barbara, I added a quote to the Adûnaic entry. Thank you! I'll take it off the Quoteless list... [Edit: ] Done. It probably needs more work, as Zimraphel's text mentioned it had a little Khuzdul mixed in as well. I was wondering if you'd noticed any references to that in your readings to find out about the Easterlings? No, all I saw was a hint of Khuzdul in the Easterling language. I'll keep an eye out... Of course, the net result of chasing this quote down is that I can see a need for entries for other languages such as Westron and Khuzdul, while the Quenya entry needs a quote. So... I may be heading off on a languages "kick" at some point as well Very, very big grin... Unless anyone else wants this one? *hopefully holds out cute, cuddly "languages" nuzgul with only a little blood on its fangs* Yeah, and just *whose* blood do you think that is? No thanks, I detached that one with great difficulty... He lost out to all the Wars and Battles involving Good-looking Rohirrim and/or Scrumptious Elves that I want to work on. - Barbara

 

The admin access has been reorganized, so resource access now will go through the main admin page. So now we have to click twice, instead of once, to get to Resources Admin Home? I think I can handle that (especially if it enhances security). - Barbara

 

Maybe one of the resource-savvy folk could have a look at it? Welcome, Fliewatuet! And thank you for doing Arvedui's entry. Since you're new at this, I'll go take a look at your entry and see if I have any feedback... - Barbara

 

I have added a biography for Arvedui And it looks good, Fliewatuet! I have a few minor comments and suggestions: I have developed the habit of not putting quote marks around the quotations, and instead, surrounding almost everything that is NOT a quotation (or its citation) with []. The reason is that my entries tend to consist almost entirely of quotations. Whether you surround your quotations with quote marks is up to you, as long as it's clear which is quoted material and which is not. (As yours is now.) You might want to add a link to the entry for Malbeth the Seer's Words, so they can be found easily in their entirety. Instead of the section title of "Important dates:", you might want to use "History" (in bold); that is a guideline that I am starting to encourage whenever appropriate (see my template for Character Bios: even though you certainly don't need the Table of Contents and hyperlinks for such a small entry, you can still use the section titles [edit:] where appropriate for the information you have). I also encourage you to put the dates in bold in the History entries; that makes them easier to pick out from the following text, in my opinion. The only other suggestion I have is the format of your hyperlinks: Ang recommends a slightly different address format, and I recommend forcing a new window, as follows: (replace the { with <): Instead of: {a href="/members/resources/events_view.cfm?EVID=134">Arvedui weds Fíriel, daughter of Ondoher of Gondor.{/a> use: {a href="../resources/events_view.cfm?EVID=134" target="_blank">Arvedui weds Fíriel, daughter of Ondoher of Gondor.{/a> So, Malbeth the Seer's words would be found at: {a href="../resources/things_view.cfm?THID=62" target="_blank">Malbeth the Seer's words{/a> That's it, Fliewatuet. If anyone else has any feedback, I hope they'll add it here, too. Thank you for adding Arvedui, and welcome to Resources! - Barbara

 

Hi Fliewatuet Let me second Barbara's welcome and echo her praise for the bio. Very nice! I think it works extremely well to link to the timeline events. The only (extremely picky) comment I have is that your reference for the source of the quotation is in a slightly different format to the one Barbara has been encouraging me to use (she sent me a copy of her spreadsheet). But what you've used is accurate and clear, and that's what really matters. Thanks again for adding Arvedui to the resource library. Cheers, Liz

 

I may be heading off on a languages "kick" at some point as well Very, very big grin... I'd say you were an evil woman, but this was entirely self inflicted The really evil person here is Marta, for mentioning Lossoth and Pettty-dwarves to me in the first place. I think I can hear her cackles from across the Atlantic.... He lost out to all the Wars and Battles involving Good-looking Rohirrim and/or Scrumptious Elves that I want to work on. Hmmph, what about Wars and Battles involving Handsome Raven-haired Gondorians? Or have you done all of those already? Or is that my department? Cheers, Liz

 

The only (extremely picky) comment I have is that your reference for the source of the quotation is in a slightly different format to the one Barbara has been encouraging me to use (she sent me a copy of her spreadsheet). If you plan to do more Resources entries (which we would certainly like to encourage), I would be more than happy to send you the spreadsheet of Source Citations. It's not so much that I'm trying to enforce a certain format (although that's nice...) but that I find citations tedious to format, so I do each one once and then copy it from the spreadsheet thereafter. Also, I have a spreadsheet of Links that I copy and paste from. It doesn't contain every item in the database, but it's growing all the time (over 1750 entries)... I would be happy to send you that, too, if you'd like. Let me know... - Barbara [Edit: ] P.S. Anyone who wants the spreadsheets can ask me, the offer isn't exclusive to Liz and Fliewatuet...

 

I can absolutely vouch for the fact that Barbara's spreadsheets make doing the fiddly parts of entries (like citations) much easier and quicker. While I like standards too, it's the fact that I don't have to spend five minutes per quote working out how the heck to reference it that I really like. Cheers, Liz PS Barbara - the languages nuzgul bit enough that I did an entry on Westron. I also found the reference for the Adûnaic/Khuzdul link. Which means, of course, I may now need to do an entry on Khuzdul.... Unless anyone else wants to. Please....

 

Thanks Barbara and Tanaqui for the comments. I must admit that I just fumbled along yesterday, since it was late and I was too lazy to search for templates and the like I changed the format of the links, 'important dates' to History and used bold face for the years as well. I also changed the citation, I am not sure whether it's the right format now, but I tried to stick to the format used in the bios of the Lossoth and Beorn. I added the link to Malbeth the Seer's words, but not in the text, only in the link section. I hope that is what you had in mind, Barbara. Oh, and I'd be interested in that spreadsheet, though I don't know yet how much I'll contribute to resources. But since I try to get my facts straight before writing anything, I'd gladly share. [edit: email-adress removed] Then I'll figure out how to read the format ... (Linux user here ...) Cheers, fliewatuet

 

Barbara - the languages nuzgul bit enough that I did an entry on Westron. Excellent! I always thought that was a glaring hole in the library... I also found the reference for the Adûnaic/Khuzdul link. Which means, of course, I may now need to do an entry on Khuzdul.... Unless anyone else wants to. That would be great! Sorry, my list is full... and I'm not even getting any entries done as it is.... - Barbara

 

Thanks Barbara and Tanaqui for the comments. You're welcome! I must admit that I just fumbled along yesterday, since it was late and I was too lazy to search for templates and the like LOL! Some of us are just a little more experienced in our fumbling... and some of us are too lazy to work out how to do something more than once. I changed the format of the links, 'important dates' to History and used bold face for the years as well. I also changed the citation, I am not sure whether it's the right format now, but I tried to stick to the format used in the bios of the Lossoth and Beorn. Great! Yes, both Lossoth and Beorn are formatted well. I added the link to Malbeth the Seer's words, but not in the text, only in the link section. I hope that is what you had in mind, Barbara. That is fine! Oh, and I'd be interested in that spreadsheet ... Then I'll figure out how to read the format ... (Linux user here ...) I can send the two spreadsheets (Links and Citations) to you as Excel files (.xls), and as text files. For text, I'll send comma-separated-values files (.csv) and tab-delimited files (.txt, I think). If you can read the spreadsheet files, they are nicely-formatted to make them easier to read. If you can't, hopefully one of the text formats will work for you, and I'd be interested in knowing which you found most useful... - Barbara P.S. And I have saved your email address, in case you'd like to remove it from your post.

 

fliewatuet wrote: Thanks Barbara and Tanaqui for the comments. You're very welcome and it's great to have you involved in Resources Barbara wrote: ....and some of us are too lazy to work out how to do something more than once. And some of us are so lazy that we don't even want to put that much effort in and want to use what someone else has worked out. I wrote: Which means, of course, I may now need to do an entry on Khuzdul.... Unless anyone else wants to. Barbara wrote: That would be great! Sorry, my list is full... and I'm not even getting any entries done as it is.... And it would be my fault you're not getting any entries done, would it? Khuzdul is still on my list, but I'm happy to give it away to a good home. Partly because I'm wondering when I became a dwarf expert. Petty-dwarves are all done, though. I even have a footnote. Cheers, Liz

 

Partly because I'm wondering when I became a dwarf expert. I am glad to see my name still being cursed, though I've been less active in the fandom than I'd like lately (real life...) And I'm really glad that I'm causing Liz to stretch her interests. Dwarves are great. They have the cute, cuddly height of hobbits, the manliness of Dunedain, and the love of fine jewellery of Elves. Marta (Because Gimli is sexy too...)

 

And it would be my fault you're not getting any entries done, would it? I didn't say that... Partly because I'm wondering when I became a dwarf expert. About the same time I became a Man expert (except for the Rohirrim and their ancestors, of course...) Petty-dwarves are all done, though. Great! I'm hoping to proofread at least some of the entries you asked me to tonight (sorry that I haven't yet). Are you using files for everything? If so, if I see any typos or suggestions, I will send them to you (instead of changing them directly), so you can update your files. I even have a footnote. Woohoo! Your corruption indoctrination is complete... - Barbara

 

Hi Marta! Good to see you drop by! And I'm really glad that I'm causing Liz to stretch her interests. That's a polite euphemism for tormenting Liz, right? (Because Gimli is sexy too...) If you say so, Marta... if you say so. - Barbara, who never met a male of the Elf or Rohirrim persuasion that wasn't sexy... oh, and Faramir qualifies, too...

 

I'm hoping to proofread at least some of the entries you asked me to tonight (sorry that I haven't yet). Are you using files for everything? If so, if I see any typos or suggestions, I will send them to you (instead of changing them directly), so you can update your files. No problem on not getting to the proofreading. If you want to update the entries but tell me which ones have been corrected, I can go in to the admin side and copy the edited text back into my files, if that's easier for you. Either way is fine. Cheers, Liz PS to Marta: And I don't expect to ever hear the crack about never writing about anything but Faramir ever again, d'you hear? Otherwise I may just be compelled to write the definitive evil!Denethor bio, putting the worst possible spin on everything....

 

Meril has requested Mahtan, and I've added him. We have a bio of him that Finch did in the "Elves - Minor characters" article, so it can be transferred. I'll try to get to it, but probably not tonight. Barbara, could you (pretty please?) send me your citation list? I'd like to keep mine consistent with yours. Lyllyn

 

Barbara, could you (pretty please?) send me your citation list? I'd like to keep mine consistent with yours. Sure! I sent it to you as a spreadsheet. Let me know if you need me to convert it to text for you (have to do each book/set of books separately... and since it grows all the time...) - Barbara

 

I'd say you were an evil woman, but this was entirely self inflicted The really evil person here is Marta, for mentioning Lossoth and Pettty-dwarves to me in the first place. I think I can hear her cackles from across the Atlantic.... Marta is definitely much more evil than I am... Hmmph, what about Wars and Battles involving Handsome Raven-haired Gondorians? Or have you done all of those already? Actually, yes... at least, everything involved in the Siege of Minas Tirith (including the attack on Osgiliath the previous year, which was already in the db) and his ambush of the Haradrim (that was the coolest battle... It even inspired a drabble! ). I thought Faramir deserved to be honored for playing such a key role (unfortunately, not always actively...) in the events of the Siege. Sorry! (But you can have any non-battle events concerning the only Dúnedain worth squeeing over...) - Barbara

 

I can send the two spreadsheets (Links and Citations) to you as Excel files (.xls), and as text files. For text, I'll send comma-separated-values files (.csv) and tab-delimited files (.txt, I think). If you can read the spreadsheet files, they are nicely-formatted to make them easier to read. If you can't, hopefully one of the text formats will work for you, and I'd be interested in knowing which you found most useful... Wow, that spreadsheet is terrific . All formats worked for me. I use OpenOffice, which can also read Excel files, and the .txt and .csv files are readable as well. I'll go and change the citation in a second ... Thanks, fliewatuet

 

fliewatuet: Wow, that spreadsheet is terrific . Isn't it? We're very lucky to have someone as organised/lazy as Barbara producing this stuff for us even lazier types to use. Also, a big thank you to Barbara for proofreading my entries - much appreciated. (Any remaining errors are all my fault.) Cheers, Liz

 

I wrote: Hmmph, what about Wars and Battles involving Handsome Raven-haired Gondorians? Or have you done all of those already? Barbara answered: Actually, yes... Well, that's all right then. As long as you're not neglecting him. Plenty of places to link to in that expanded bio I'm threatening. Barbara wrote: his ambush of the Haradrim (that was the coolest battle... It even inspired a drabble! ) It did. A very wonderful drabble. Which the lucky recipient was rude enough to take you to task for over your "poetic license" approach to canon. (You couldn't possibly have known I was researching that era for a story for the Namesakes challenge. Or how very happy I was to see you combine the two incidents!) Cheers, Liz

 

Wow, that spreadsheet is terrific . All formats worked for me. I use OpenOffice, which can also read Excel files Glad you found it useful! I'm also glad to hear that OpenOffice works so well... it's good to know that if I decided to install Linux I wouldn't have to switch operating systems just to work on my beloved spreadsheets... - Barbara

 

We're very lucky to have someone as organised/lazy as Barbara producing this stuff Lyllyn calls it obsessive... Also, a big thank you to Barbara for proofreading my entries - much appreciated. You're welcome... it's a treat to work with someone as *cough* obsessive *cough* as I seem to be... - Barbara

 

As long as you're not neglecting him. Nevah! A very wonderful drabble. Which the lucky recipient was rude enough to take you to task for over your "poetic license" approach to canon. But I *really* appreciated the real, live, authorly feedback... (You couldn't possibly have known I was researching that era for a story for the Namesakes challenge. Or how very happy I was to see you combine the two incidents!) No, I didn't -- what a fortuitous coincidence! Nor did I know that you would catch any *ahem* ever-so-slight flexing of canon for overriding artistic values... When I did the research for the Wars of the Wainriders (I *love* UT), Faramir's little corner of the story just broke my heart... and it's the tidbits with emotional resonance that end up later in my better drabbles. - Barbara

 

Lyllyn calls it obsessive... You say that like obsessive is a bad thing. lyllyn

 

In the great resource!nuzgul tradition of starting in one place and ending up producing entries quite somewhere else, I've managed to get from needing to enter Nogrod in places (to complement Belegost) to needing to enter some timeline events for Thingol being slain by the dwarves of Nogrod and the dwarf-host from Nogrod in turn being destroyed by Beren and Dior. The only other event from around that time is Dior goes to Doriath. But reading it, I discover there are competing versions of the dates for events in the later First Age in various sources in The Lost Road and War of the Jewels. And then I discover going to the HoMe volumes that two versions give 501/502 as the relevant years and two give 502/503.... So, while I'm happy to note (with references) all these discrepancies, can anyone tell me which manuscript is the "definitive" version for dating First Age events in the HASA research library? (If you can give me a reason why it's that particular manuscript, even better, but that's not strictly necessary. ) (Barbara, I may need some help dividing up the story into several events and also naming them!) My second question is to do with whether we already have a "Dwarves: minor characters" research article and I just can't find it, or whether we need one. I found a bit of information about Telchar of Nogrod. There's not much, but he did seem to have have a hand in making some of the interesting weapons and armour from the First Age (Angrist, Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin and Narsil, for instance). And he's friendly with Eöl and Maeglin. Should I create a "Dwarves: minor characters" research article and put Telchar in it? Or should I create a separate bio for him? (Kitt, I know you've entered a lot of Third Age dwarven bios recently, so I'd be really interested to know what you think about this.) Cheeers, Liz

 

can anyone tell me which manuscript is the "definitive" version for dating First Age events in the HASA research library? My uninformed opinion *in general* is that later HoME volumes usually trump earlier HoME volumes... I hope some of the folks who actually have experience with First Age entries can weigh in on this question, though...I've done very little First Age stuff. (Barbara, I may need some help dividing up the story into several events and also naming them!) Certainly, though I'll have to refresh my memory of the events. Do you have some "headlines" for the events you're thinking of creating? If so, you can post them here and I'll make suggestions. Or, give me some time to skim the appropriate sections in the Silm and UT and I'll propose some... Don't know whether it'll help here, but I've been playing with the Battles [Wars, Invasions, Sieges, ...] template, and [edit:] have posted it here in the Useful Tools & Templates thread. (Please let me know if anything seems odd or unclear.) Should I create a "Dwarves: minor characters" research article and put Telchar in it? Or should I create a separate bio for him? I lean toward separate Bios, but I'm not concerned with the length of the Characters drop-down list (although you probably should specify the members-only list, if there are no stories with Telchar). I think you should check with Lyllyn for the definitive word on this. The dwarves that Kitt added were the missing members of the Quest of Erebor, so they aren't quite as obscure (except for those who never read The Hobbit!) as Telchar. - Barbara

 

So, while I'm happy to note (with references) all these discrepancies, can anyone tell me which manuscript is the "definitive" version for dating First Age events in the HASA research library? (If you can give me a reason why it's that particular manuscript, even better, but that's not strictly necessary. ) I'm looking up why I listed as 503, but I'm not sure I had a strong reason. I'll come back to this, and then we can discuss what we'll use to choose 'definitive'. At the time I was working in something of a vacuum, I'd welcome hashing out a "rank order" of sources. You could either create the dwarves:minor characters article, or do a bio. I don't think most people realize the minor characters articles exist. lyllyn

 

I just wanted to do a quick entry on Nogrod, honest.... *sigh* On the dating front, I was reading the Annals again more carefully, and it turns out none of the Annals agree with the account in the Silm. The Annals all have Thingol slain when the dwarves come back and attack Doriath, not just after they remake the Nauglamir, which is what happens in the Silm. So now I'm completely confused.... Lyllyn, Barbara, would it help if I e-mailed everything I've dug out of the sources to you, so you can see the problem for yourselves? Lyllyn wrote: I'd welcome hashing out a "rank order" of sources. That sounds like a good idea. Barbara asked if I had headlines for the events. I think the section divides into six separate events: Mîm slain by Húrin in Nargothrond Húrin brings the Nauglamír to Thingol Nauglamír remade to incorporate the Silmaril Thingol slain in Menegroth by dwarves of Nogrod Melian returns to Valinor Dwarves of Nogrod sack Doriath and are destroyed by Beren and Dior Barbara wrote: Don't know whether it'll help here, but I've been playing with the Battles [Wars, Invasions, Sieges, ...] template, and will post it, as well, in the Useful Tools & Templates thread. (Please let me know if anything seems odd or unclear.) I'll go look, thanks. Barbara wrote: I lean toward separate Bios, but I'm not concerned with the length of the Characters drop-down list (although you probably should specify the members-only list, if there are no stories with Telchar). I think you should check with Lyllyn for the definitive word on this. Lyllyn wrote: You could either create the dwarves:minor characters article, or do a bio. I don't think most people realize the minor characters articles exist. I just did a quick forums seach, and it turns out there is at least one story about Telchar! So I'll give him a separate bio but put it on "limited lists". As a general point, is the length of the character drop-down list an issue? And could we flag the minor character bios better within, say, the overview article for a particular race (as I did with my Gondorians bio)? Cheers, Liz

 

On the dating front, I was reading the Annals again more carefully, and it turns out none of the Annals agree with the account in the Silm. The Annals all have Thingol slain when the dwarves come back and attack Doriath, not just after they remake the Nauglamir, which is what happens in the Silm. So now I'm completely confused.... As I recall, the Silm doesn't give any useful dates, and the Annals give dates, but the sequence of events don't agree with the Silm? Hmmm, can you hash out an approximate date of the first event and the last (from the Annals), then interpolate them? Dwarves of Nogrod sack Doriath and are destroyed by Beren and Dior Off the top of my head, I'd separate those two... weren't the Dwarves of Nogrod returning home from sacking when they were ambushed by Beren and Dior? Wait, wasn't Dior killed in the sack of Doriath??? *Barbara needs to refresh her memory before opening her mouth again....* [Edit:] Oh, that's right... two separate assaults on Doriath... - Barbara, off to read the Silm...

 

As I recall, the Silm doesn't give any useful dates, and the Annals give dates, but the sequence of events don't agree with the Silm? Yep. Oh joy! I've posted what the four Annals say at the end of the post. The first two have 501/502, the second two have 502/503. But in The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Ch 22, Of the Ruin of Doriath, the dwarves kill Thingol right after he puts the necklace on and then try and escape with it. Most of them are killed, but a couple get back to Nogrod and stir up the dwarves to come back and attack Doriath. Dwarves of Nogrod sack Doriath and are destroyed by Beren and Dior Off the top of my head, I'd separate those two... weren't the Dwarves of Nogrod returning home from sacking when they were ambushed by Beren and Dior? Yep. Happy to separate them if you think it's a good idea. Wait, wasn't Dior killed in the sack of Doriath??? Nope, that was the other sacking of Doriath by Celegorm and his brothers, at the end of the chapter.... Cheers, Liz Anyway, Those Annal entries in full: 301 [501]. Thingol employed Dwarvish craftsmen to fashion his gold and silver and the treasure of Nargothrond; and they made the renowned Nauglamir, the Dwarf-necklace, whereon was hung the Silmaril. Enmity awoke between Dwarves and Elves, and the Dwarves were driven away unrewarded. 302 [502]. Here the Dwarves (41) came in force from Nogrod and from Belegost and invaded Doriath; and they came within by treachery, for many Elves were smitten with the accursed lust of the gold. Thingol was slain and the Thousand Caves were plun- dered; and there hath been war between Elf and Dwarf since that day. But Melian the Queen could not be slain or taken, and she departed to Ossiriand. Beren and the Green-elves overthrew the Dwarves at Sarn- Athrad as they returned eastward, and the gold was cast into the river Ascar, which was after called Rathloriel, the Bed of Gold. But Beren took the Nauglamir and the Silmaril. Luthien wore the Silmaril upon her breast. Dior their son ruled over the remnants of the Elves of Doriath. The Lost Road and Other Writings, HoME Vol 5, Part 2, Ch 6, The Later Annals of Beleriand 501. Making of the Nauglamir. Thingol quarrels with the Dwarves. 502. The Dwarves invade Doriath. Thingol is slain and his realm ended. Melian returns to Valinor. Beren destroys the Dwarf- host at Rath-loriel. The War of the Jewels, HoME Vol 11, Part 3, Ch5, The Tale of Years [Manuscript A] 502. Making of the Naugla-mir. Thingol quarrels with the Dwarves. 503. The Dwarves invade Doriath. Thingol is slain and his realm ended. Melian takes Nauglamir to Beren and Luthien and then returns to Valinor. Celegorm and Curufin destroy the Dwarf-host at Sarn-athrad in Rath-loriel; and are wroth to find the Silmaril not there. Dior goes to Doriath. The War of the Jewels, HoME Vol 11, Part 3, Ch5, The Tale of Years [Manuscript B] 502. Making of the Nauglamir. Thingol quarrels with the Dwarves. 503. The Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod invade Doriath. Thingol is slain, and his realm ended. The Dwarves carry off the Dragon-gold, but Melian escaped and carried off the Nauglamir and the Silmaril, and brought it to Beren and Luthien. Then she returned to Valinor; but Luthien wore the Silmaril. Now Curufin and Celegorm hearing of the sack of Menegroth ambushed the Dwarves at the fords of Ascar and defeated them; but the Dwarves cast the gold into the river, which was after named Rathloriel. Great was the chagrin of the Sons of Feanor to discover that the Silmaril was not with the Dwarves; but they dared not assail Luthien. The War of the Jewels, HoME Vol 11, Part 3, Ch5, The Tale of Years [Manuscript C]

 

I've posted what the four Annals say at the end of the post. The first two have 501/502, the second two have 502/503. Okay, here's what I think: I think that HoME Vol 11 "trumps" HoME Vol 5, so to speak, so discard the dates from The Lost Road. Then, assuming that Chris Tolkien named the manuscripts in what he thought was their chronological sequence, I'd look at the dates in Manuscript C more closely. Then, I would take the date of WoJ's statement that "Thingol quarrels with the Dwarves" to be the date that Thingol was actually killed in the Silm's version of events, and get a date range of 502-503. Which is consistent with -- or at least, does not grossly violate -- the date for Dior goes to Doriath and the later Ruin of Doriath. Them's my thought processes, for whatever they're worth... - Barbara [Edti:] P.S. I'd recommend "Húrin takes the Nauglamír to Thingol" (or "gives" or "presents") instead of "brings"...

 

As a general point, is the length of the character drop-down list an issue? That is Lyllyn's domain... My personal, utterly unofficial opinion is that we should not let that consideration hinder us in filling out the Reference Library... And could we flag the minor character bios better within, say, the overview article for a particular race (as I did with my Gondorians bio)? Sorry, haven't read your Gondorians bio, but I would definitely agree that any Minor Characters articles that exist should be linked (with sideline links, at least) to the associated Race entry. - Barbara

 

*blushes* Seems I should have read on a bit further (that's what you get for skim reading!).... There's a D manuscript as well for this period in The War of the Jewels, HoME Vol 11, Part 3, Ch5, The Tale of Years and it turns out that it was C Tolkien putting together the chapter for the Silm who introduced the inconsistencies between the events in Annals/ToY and The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Ch 22, Of the Ruin of Doriath. (You know, I'm getting a strong urge to just run away from all of this... ) Anyway, Manuscript D (which agrees with B and C, and yes, they are labelled in chronological order of composition, with D latest) says: 501. Hurin is released from captivity. He goes to Nargothrond and seizes the treasure of Glaurung. He takes the treasure to Menegroth and casts it at the feet of Thingol. 502. The Nauglamir is wrought of the treasure of Glaurung, and the Silmaril is hung thereon. Thingol quarrels with the Dwarves who had wrought for him the Necklace. 503. The Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod invade Doriath. King Elu Thingol is slain and his realm ended. Melian escapes and carries away the Nauglamir and the Silmaril, and brings them to Beren and Luthien. She then forsook Middle-earth and re- turned to Valinor. The War of the Jewels, HoME Vol 11, Part 3, Ch5, The Tale of Years [Manuscript D] I'm inclined to use the story as set out in the Silm, but with the following dates based on Manuscripts, B, C and D, which all agree. (I've assign nominal dates in the year in brackets to each event to keep them in order in the database.) 501 (1 June) Mîm slain by Húrin in Nargothrond 501 (1 December) Húrin takes the Nauglamír to Thingol 502 (1 Feb) Nauglamír remade to incorporate the Silmaril 502 (1 March) Thingol slain in Menegroth by dwarves of Nogrod 502 (1 June) Melian returns to Valinor 503 (1 March) Dwarves of Nogrod sack Doriath 503 (1 June) Dwarves of Nogrod are destroyed by Beren and Dior at Sarn Athrad I think I will also need to switch the nominal date given for Dior goes to Doriath (it's currently 1 Jan) to, say, 1 September. These dates will work with the dates in Lyllyn's two entries relating to Dior goes to Doriath (503) and the Ruin of Doriath (509). If someone comes along later and wants to change the dates to keep them consistent with new entries, I have no problem with that! Does that sound sensible? Cheers, Liz PS Barbara - just wanted to say that the wars etc template is great. (I didn't post over in that thread to say that because I think it's nice not to clutter it up with random posts but keep it just for the templates.)

 

As a general point, is the length of the character drop-down list an issue? That is Lyllyn's domain... Ang's too, maybe? I remember there being a discussion when I was agitating for Gondorians (and maybe specific Gondorians) to be added to the drop-downs, and I got a sense that we didn't want too many names, but I honestly can't remember the outcome or the reasoning. I would definitely agree that any Minor Characters articles that exist should be linked (with sideline links, at least) to the associated Race entry. Sorry Barbara, I wasn't very clear there! What I was suggesting was that we not only use the sideline links (which I'm not sure people are completely aware of, since you have to click to show them) but also put a hyperlink to the article (and maybe a list of chapter titles) in the main entry, which should attract more attention. Cheers, Liz

 

(You know, I'm getting a strong urge to just run away from all of this... ) No, no, no, Liz! You're so close! You're halfway up Mt. Doom... I'm inclined to use the story as set out in the Silm, but with the following dates based on Manuscripts, B, C and D, which all agree. Excellent! I think what you propose makes sense... it uses the Silm for the events, and WoJ for the dates -- once you got over the confusion of *which* dates to trust, that is... And what you propose with nominal dates is fine with me -- January 1 is just the default date for entries that only have a year... (BTW, if my proposal to add a sequence number to the entries is implemented, we wouldn't have to invent nominal dates to sequence events within a specific year...) PS Barbara - just wanted to say that the wars etc template is great. Thank you! You perhaps may be able to guess where my *cough* obsessiveness *cough* has been leading me this year... Which is odd, because I have never had the slightest interest in military matters in the real world. - Barbara

 

That is Lyllyn's domain... Ang's too, maybe? Erm, what I meant was: The Powers That Be, one of which I am most decidedly not... What I was suggesting was that we not only use the sideline links (which I'm not sure people are completely aware of, since you have to click to show them) but also put a hyperlink to the article (and maybe a list of chapter titles) in the main entry, which should attract more attention. Oh, yes, indeed! Links are good... big, fat, obvious, colorful, in-text links with a flashing neon sign saying "Click Me!" are even better! - Barbara

 

Barbara wrote: Excellent! I think what you propose makes sense... Glad to hear it! Doesn't feel like it at times. Anyway, I now seem to have managed to defang the Nogrod resource!nuzgul for the moment. Only via two other Places, a new Bio and seven Timeline Events, mind you. And the realisation there are a bunch of other Beleriand Places and Things that need entries.... Lyllyn, I added a bit to your and Belegost entry and made the formatting and references consistent with the current "standard" (as much as we have one). Any corrections, comments, brickbats or bouquets gratefully received. Barbara wrote: You perhaps may be able to guess where my *cough* obsessiveness *cough* has been leading me this year... Which is odd, because I have never had the slightest interest in military matters in the real world. Neither have I, so of course it's obvious that the second thing ever I'd do in resources would be to write a whole speculative research article trying to make sense of the military setup in Gondor, isn't it? (Actually, that's way more obvious than why I'm footling around with all these First Age Beleriand entries.) Barbara wrote: Links are good... big, fat, obvious, colorful, in-text links with a flashing neon sign saying "Click Me!" are even better! And just how do you do neon in HTML?Oh wait, I do know how we could kind of do that, but I think Ang really would come and give me 10 lashes with the wet noodles if I tried it. Cheers, Liz PS to Lyllyn: By the way, as a side excursion, I discovered you'd put paragraph rather than break tags in the entry for Thangorodrim (I changed them) which meant it was displaying two or three lines between paragraphs. I don't think it's a consistent problem like the issue in Things, but it may be something we need to keep an eye out for?

 

Lyllyn, I added a bit to your and Belegost entry and made the formatting and references consistent with the current "standard" (as much as we have one). Great! I did Mahtan yesterday, and since this is my first one with the new template, I'd appreciate a checkover - thanks, Liz and Barbara. PS to Lyllyn: By the way, as a side excursion, I discovered you'd put paragraph rather than break tags in the entry for Thangorodrim (I changed them) which meant it was displaying two or three lines between paragraphs. I don't think it's a consistent problem like the issue in Things, but it may be something we need to keep an eye out for? Thanks - I think I was having trouble with tags at some point, and tried paragraph tags to see if that would work better. I don't think I did too many that way, but change whatever you come across. Spurred on by the discussion, I finally looked into date precedence - see next message.

 

I started reading on the dating issue, and of course that brings up the nice geeky argument once again - "What is canon?" I found some interesting sites to feed this obsession: The Tolkien Meta-FAQ Relative canonicity list By and large, I agree with his reasoning, but we need to get our geeky brains together and agree on a system. So it's time to bite the bullet and start a heirarchy of sources. Some are easy: LotR (unless C. Tolkien wrote somewhere "this is an error.") The Hobbit Then it gets harder. I propose for consideration: Unfinished Tales Then the later HoME volumes. Okay, here's what I think: I think that HoME Vol 11 "trumps" HoME Vol 5, so to speak, so discard the dates from The Lost Road. I completely agree. For dates: The War of the Jewels, HoME 11, and The Peoples of Middle-earth, HoME 12, should take precedence over The Lost Road, HoME 5. The LotR appendices dates take precedence over UT and Peoples of Middle-earth, except where C. Tolkien notes an error or internal contradiction. Within War of the Jewels, The Tale of Years, the furthest down the alphabet is the latest, and therefore preferred, version. Thus version D2 is accepted over D1, and any D over C, etc. (And yes, Liz, I goofed on the "Ruin of Doriath" entry, and it should be fixed.) For maps: Those in LotR, Silmarillion, and UT take precedence. Anything added (and which doesn't contradict the above) can be accepted from other HoME volumes, such as The Treason of Isengard, HoME 7. I don't have it, but Pictures by J.R.R. Tolkien and J.R.R. Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator which have Tolkien's drawings sound like they vary quite a bit - any map contradicting LotR would be problematic, but augmenting LotR maps is fine. I also read reference to something I don't have, but you language enthusiasts might - "Guide to Names in The Lord of the Rings" which was in early versions of "A Tolkien Compass," and explained the meaning of many names. Let the geekery begin! Lyllyn

 

This looks good to me - except I'm not sure where you're putting the Silm (especially relative to the ToY in the WoJ)? The Silm has no dates but often does have the most detailed descriptions of events - and almost certainly the version of events that people are most familiar with. Yet, as I discovered, the Silm contradicts the ToY and what Tolkien probably intended, because of C Tolkien's attempt to edit the story into a coherent whole.... So does the Silm trump the ToY in WoJ or the other way around? Cheers, Liz PS When we have agreed on a hierarchy, maybe we should put it in "Useful Tools and Templates" so it's relatively easy to find and consult?

 

This looks good to me - except I'm not sire where you're putting the Silm (especially relative to the ToY in the WoJ)? The Silm has no dates but often does have the most detailed descriptions of events - and almost certainly the version of events that people are most familiar with. Yet, as I discovered, the Silm contradicts the ToY and what Tolkien probably intended, because of C Tolkien's attempt to edit the story into a coherent whole.... So does the Silm trump the ToY in WoJ or the other way around? And therein lies the rub... Some sites accept the Silm's version of events, but use ToY's dates, which can get messy at times. How would it work to do it that way when possible, but always put in notes on the contradictions (which we do anyway)? At some point whatever we decide will also have to be made transparent to the user, so we'd have to write it up into a FAQ for resources, and/or an explanation on the timeline main page. PS When we have agreed on a hierarchy, maybe we should put it in "Useful Tools and Templates" so it's relatively easy to find and consult? Absolutely! I'd like to have all the tools in one place (thanks, Barbara!) and eventually reproduce all of it in the WIP admin tutorials as well. Lyllyn

 

I now seem to have managed to defang the Nogrod resource!nuzgul for the moment. Only via two other Places, a new Bio and seven Timeline Events, mind you. I'm so glad I'm not the only obsessive around! I have never had the slightest interest in military matters in the real world. Neither have I, so of course it's obvious that the second thing ever I'd do in resources would be to write a whole speculative research article trying to make sense of the military setup in Gondor, isn't it? You know, I remember hearing about that article and being *so* impressed that someone actually knew about that kind of stuff ... (Don't think I'd gotten hooked on my first battle yet...) Glad to see we were both cranking out entries last night -- good to get them done, isn't it? - Barbara

 

I did Mahtan yesterday, and since this is my first one with the new template, I'd appreciate a checkover - thanks, Liz and Barbara. Cool! He seemed like an interesting sort of fellow... Thanks - I think I was having trouble with tags at some point, and tried paragraph tags to see if that would work better. *Puzzled look* But why are you using HTML tags for paragraphs at all? They are not necessary! If you want a blank line between paragraphs, you just put a blank line in the text! And simple line breaks are honored, as well, without any HTML tags. (Which is why, if you are composing text in Notepad, you need to turn off the "Word Wrap" option before doing the copy and paste -- otherwise it inserts extraneous line breaks.) The only HTML tags needed in the main Descripton field are for special formatting, like blockquotes and bold, italics, etc. [Edit:] Oh, and links -- how could I forget links? One exception: at the very beginning of an entry, if you don't want the text to immediately follow the built-in "Description:" title, you need a break tag or two. And the small fields (Contributor, Other Names, etc.) still need break tags. (The Things entries still required break tags until just a couple weeks ago -- that's why I asked Ang to fix the problem -- it was inconsistent with the rest of the Resources entries, not to mention regular stories...) Let me know if I'm missing a point here... - Barbara

 

This looks good to me - except I'm not sure where you're putting the Silm (especially relative to the ToY in the WoJ)? I think the Silm should be on our list, just above UT (with the same proviso: unless C. Tolkien wrote somewhere "this is an error."), mostly because far more people have read it and are familiar with its contents than either UT or HoME. So does the Silm trump the ToY in WoJ or the other way around? [Edit:] Silm somewhat trumps WoJ, as follows: I think that an entry that draws from the Silm could be augmented with dates from ToY in the WoJ, and perhaps a note made if there are discrepancies between the events as described in the Silm and WoJ (as you did with Thingol Slain by Dwarves of Nogrod in Menegroth). PS When we have agreed on a hierarchy, maybe we should put it in "Useful Tools and Templates" so it's relatively easy to find and consult? A clear, well-documented hierarchy is always a good idea... - Barbara

 

Some sites accept the Silm's version of events, but use ToY's dates, which can get messy at times. How would it work to do it that way when possible, but always put in notes on the contradictions (which we do anyway)? Yes, that seems the most sensible way to me. After all, if I'd done Thingol's death as per ToY, it would probably have involved even longer notes to explain the variance from the Silm story! If we run into anything that tricky again, I suspect we'd all want to check our reasoning with other people anyway? Cheers, Liz

 

Thanks - I think I was having trouble with tags at some point, and tried paragraph tags to see if that would work better. *Puzzled look* But why are you using HTML tags for paragraphs at all? They are not necessary! If you want a blank line between paragraphs, you just put a blank line in the text! I was putting in the break tags, and then Ang taught me to use paragraph tags for the (still not finished) admin tutorials. Not realizing it wasn't an improvement, I tried using them instead of break tags. BTW - all 'Thing' entries should now be free from extra break tags! Which means I must now start doing other useful work.

 

us Message Some sites accept the Silm's version of events, but use ToY's dates, which can get messy at times. How would it work to do it that way when possible, but always put in notes on the contradictions (which we do anyway)? Yes, that seems the most sensible way to me. After all, if I'd done Thingol's death as per ToY, it would probably have involved even longer notes to explain the variance from the Silm story! If we run into anything that tricky again, I suspect we'd all want to check our reasoning with other people anyway? Yes! It's nice to have people around to do this! Lyllyn

 

So it's time to bite the bullet and start a heirarchy of sources. Yes, a consistent hierarchy is a good idea... Some are easy: LotR (unless C. Tolkien wrote somewhere "this is an error.") The Hobbit Agreed, but the caveat applies to *all* the books, not just LoTR. Then it gets harder. I propose for consideration: Unfinished Tales Then the later HoME volumes. I would add The Silmarillion to this list, just above UT, for the reasons stated in my other post. As far as the HoME series, I would include all of them, but put them in order based upon reverse publication date, so that any later volume trumps any earlier volume (if there is an actual discrepancy). (Umm, wait: I'm talking about how to prioritize the sources of material for the Reference Library: I am NOT talking about which books we *call* "(Tolkien) canon", and which we do not...) The LotR appendices dates take precedence over UT and Peoples of Middle-earth, except where C. Tolkien notes an error or internal contradiction. Agreed. Within War of the Jewels, The Tale of Years, the furthest down the alphabet is the latest, and therefore preferred, version. Thus version D2 is accepted over D1, and any D over C, etc. Agreed, but I think that applies to all the HoME volumes. For maps: Those in LotR, Silmarillion, and UT take precedence. Anything added (and which doesn't contradict the above) can be accepted from other HoME volumes... Agreed, but add Hobbit to the list, probably before LoTR (by publication date). I don't have it, but Pictures by J.R.R. Tolkien and J.R.R. Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator which have Tolkien's drawings sound like they vary quite a bit - any map contradicting LotR would be problematic, but augmenting LotR maps is fine. Agreed. I also read reference to something I don't have, but you language enthusiasts might - "Guide to Names in The Lord of the Rings" which was in early versions of "A Tolkien Compass," and explained the meaning of many names. Was that something that Tolkien wrote to aid translators? If so, I would consider it a canon source for name meanings... Liz, you didn't mention non-primary materials that might be used in an entry (with full citations, of course). Nessime approved of notes from The Annotated Hobbit, annotated by Douglas A Anderson, and I have sometimes described locations from maps in The Atlas of Middle-earth. These should only be used, of course, in cases where they supplement but don't contradict the major books -- Hobbit, LoTR, Silm(?), UT(?). And maybe we should mention sources that are not allowed: Robert Foster's book (whose name escapes me) seems to be riddled with errors, not to mention lack of citations. And the web site, Encyclopedia of Arda(?)... I do not think these, or items like them, are acceptable as sources for the entries, since they are neither primary nor credible secondary (especially without citations). (I have in fact used Foster's book as a starting point for my real research once or twice... but would never consider trusting it without seeing whether the real quotes back it up or not.) Hope this helps! - Barbara

 

Some sites accept the Silm's version of events, but use ToY's dates, which can get messy at times. How would it work to do it that way when possible, but always put in notes on the contradictions (which we do anyway)? Yes, that seems the most sensible way to me. After all, if I'd done Thingol's death as per ToY, it would probably have involved even longer notes to explain the variance from the Silm story! Agreed! If we run into anything that tricky again, I suspect we'd all want to check our reasoning with other people anyway? Definitely a good idea! I've always felt better after checking with you folks whenever I was uncertain about something... - Barbara

 

I was putting in the break tags, and then Ang taught me to use paragraph tags for the (still not finished) admin tutorials. Ahh, now I understand! Are break or paragraph tags even necessary for the tutorials? (Okay, I admit it: I'm extremely lazy, and don't want to even see someone else doing work that might be unnecessary...) BTW - all 'Thing' entries should now be free from extra break tags! Ah, thank you, Lyllyn! I really appreciate it! - Barbara Which means I must now start doing other useful work. Can I interest you in some work on Races? I'm sure we could arrange something... How about Elves?

 

I did Mahtan yesterday, and since this is my first one with the new template, I'd appreciate a checkover - thanks, Liz and Barbara. Overall, it looks great, Lyllyn! I think you included all the good quotes about him (from what I remember). I have only one criticism, and that is that you used the Races template rather than the Characters template. They are identical, except the Races one has an "Origins" section. So, you might want to remove the "Origins" section title... Also, for a relatively short entry (with several sections showing on the screen together), I only put one blank line before each section title rather than two... I'm not *that* obsessive about spacing... just usually do whatever looks the best for that particular entry. - Barbara

 

I have only one criticism, and that is that you used the Races template rather than the Characters template. They are identical, except the Races one has an "Origins" section. So, you might want to remove the "Origins" section title... Thanks, Barbara. I've taken out "origins" and fixed the spacing. I was looking at the link list that you sent me a while ago, and it has places but no character names. Is there a later one? Lyllyn

 

I was looking at the link list that you sent me a while ago, and it has places but no character names. Is there a later one? None? No red entries at all? I must have screwed up the copy that I sent you. I'm updating the Links and Citations lists with new entries that Liz just sent me. Will send you updated copies, hopefully later tonight. BTW, the Links list has all the Places only because of your original Places list; the only Persons, Events, and Things in it are ones that I've had to look up (and now, Liz, too)... so they do not include all the entries in the database. (But, it's growing all the time...) And the same is true of the Citations list, I've only filled in the ones I've needed... but that is also growing. - Barbara

 

Answering several posts here. Barbara - I'm in agreement with your additions to the hierarchy of sources (I have a copy of the Annotated Hobbit, but haven't really had a chance to sit down and read it!) and also what isn't acceptable. I believe the Annotated Hobbit is good for stuff like etymologies. (I remember seeing lots of nice footnotes in your Beorn/Beornings/Carrock entries?) And, of course, if the source references are given, people can make up their mind just which kind of "canon" they want to work from. Lyllyn - the Mahtan entry looks very nice! the Links list has all the Places only because of your original Places list; the only Persons, Events, and Things in it are ones that I've had to look up (and now, Liz, too)... so they do not include all the entries in the database. (But, it's growing all the time...) The sense of glee I have when I find an existing entry on the database which isn't on Barbara's spreadsheet is really quite pathetic.... And the same is true of the Citations list, I've only filled in the ones I've needed... but that is also growing. Yes, I seem to be wandering round different parts of HoMe to Barbara. I usually check with Barbara that she agrees on how I've done new references before I start using them. (And thanks for the new versions of the spreadsheets, Barbara. Which is pricking my guilty conscience about Druedain....) Cheers, Liz

 

Proposed heirarchy of sources for everyone to pick at: Note: in any instance where Christopher Tolkien points out an error found in a 'higher' source, his correction would prevail. (I would also repeat this in the date section and the map section.) LotR The Hobbit Silmarillion for events (dates will come from other sources) Unfinished Tales HoME volumes in reverse order The portions that have particular implications for Resource assistants entering data: For dates: The LotR appendices dates take precedence over UT and Peoples of Middle-earth. The War of the Jewels, HoME 11, and The Peoples of Middle-earth, HoME 12, take precedence over The Lost Road, HoME 5. Within any volume, such as The War of the Jewels, The Tale of Years, the furthest down the alphabet is the latest, and therefore preferred, version. Thus version D2 is accepted over D1, and any D over C, etc. For maps: Those in LotR, Hobbit, Silmarillion, and UT take precedence. Anything added (and which doesn't contradict the above) can be accepted from other HoME volumes, such as The Treason of Isengard, HoME 7. "Pictures by J.R.R. Tolkien" and "J.R.R. Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator" which have Tolkien's drawings vary quite a bit - any map contradicting LotR would be problematic, but augmenting LotR maps is fine. Misc: Tolkien's "Guide to Names in The Lord of the Rings" which was in early versions of "A Tolkien Compass," and explained the meaning of many names, takes precedence over other sources for names. "Letters of JRR Tolkien" will vary by date of the letter. Augmenting other sources is good, but anything contradicting higher rated sources must have a later date and then should be discussed. A few non-Tolkien sources, such as "The Annotated Hobbit" and "The Atlas of Middle-earth" are good starting points, but the material should be checked against the source - they should supplement but not contradict Tolkien's words. Books such as The Complete Guide to Middle-earth, written by Robert Foster have errors; anything in there must be very carefully checked against Tolkien sources. The same is true of the Encyclopedia of Arda and some other online resources. Comments? Lyllyn

 

Proposed heirarchy of sources for everyone to pick at: Looks good, Lyllyn! One nitpick: "heirarchy" should be spelled "hierarchy"... Tolkien's "Guide to Names in The Lord of the Rings" which was in early versions of "A Tolkien Compass," and explained the meaning of many names, takes precedence over other sources for names. By "other sources", you mean LoTR Appendix F, Silm Index, UT Index, ...? Or do you mean non-Tolkien sources? [Edit:] Books such as The Complete Guide to Middle-earth, written by Robert Foster have errors; anything in there must be very carefully checked against Tolkien sources. The same is true of the Encyclopedia of Arda and some other online resources. I would add that quotes from these sources should never be substituted for Tolkien quotes; in other words, we don't just check the information from these sources, but replace it with Tolkien's words. - Barbara

 

Hi Lyllyn and Barbara This "hierarchy" looks good to me. Lyllyn wrote: Tolkien's "Guide to Names in The Lord of the Rings" which was in early versions of "A Tolkien Compass," and explained the meaning of many names, takes precedence over other sources for names. Barbara wrote: By "other sources", you mean LoTR Appendix F, Silm Index, UT Index, ...? Or do you mean non-Tolkien sources? My understanding from the couple of excerpts I've seen is that the "Guide to Names" is more about "etymology", so that it would help someone who wanted to find an equivalent in another language for a word like Orc, which comes from an Anglo-saxon word for "demon" (and therefore involves representing the relationship between Westron and Rohirric). So I think it's mostly supplementary, rather than contradictory, to anything in any part of The Hobbit, LotR (any part), Silm or UT . (I'm thinking there's some stuff in the Istari essay about names which shows even Tolkien had some contradictory ideas.) I would certainly say Tolkien's take in "Guide to Names" on the derivation or meaning of names would take precedence over non-Tolkien sources. However, I don't think we'll run into too many problems if we document alternatives carefully. I would add that quotes from these sources should never be substituted for Tolkien quotes; in other words, we don't just check the information from these sources, but replace it with Tolkien's words. Agreed. (Given I seem to be on a slight languages track, I'm sure Ardalambion may be a good starting point for me, but I'd always want to go back to the Tolkien source for the information and quote that.) And that we make it clear where it's another source's commentary, as we've usually done with refrerences to the Annotated Hobbit or the Atlas. Cheers, Liz

 

Hi Lyllyn, I just added a quote from Arathorn's bio to the ones for Elladan and Elrohir, and noticed something odd: There are two paragraphs, each followed by a citation, followed by two more, seemingly unrelated citations (one of which is for letter 211 from JRRT's Letters, my copy of which I can't locate at the moment... most annoying, now that you have piqued my interest...) Is this a mistake? (I added my quote to the very end...) - Barbara

 

There are two paragraphs, each followed by a citation, followed by two more, seemingly unrelated citations (one of which is for letter 211 from JRRT's Letters, my copy of which I can't locate at the moment... most annoying, now that you have piqued my interest...) Is this a mistake? An omission, at the very least! The citation for Letters is supposed to follow the etymology of their names - I'll add it. The citation for tale of years is for the dates, and I'll remove it, since we're not currently citing where the dates in the fill-ins came from, unless there's controversy or contradiction. (This was one of the very first batch of bios done, in beta testing, no less!) Thanks for catching this! Lyllyn Edit: I've revised the two entries, closer to your standard format - I hope you don't mind that I moved your quote to the 'history' section. And of course I still have to add entries - their presence when Arathorn was killed, etc. And this was my 'Erendis' time!

 

Latest revision for your comments: Hierarchy of sources for dates, maps and etymology Note : In any instance where Christopher Tolkien points out an error noted in a 'higher' source, his correction would prevail. LotR The Hobbit Silmarillion for events (dates will come from other sources) Unfinished Tales HoME volumes in reverse order The portions that have particular implications for Resource assistants entering data: For dates: The War of the Jewels, HoME 11, and The Peoples of Middle-earth, HoME 12, should take precedence over The Lost Road, HoME 5. The LotR appendices dates take precedence over UT and Peoples of Middle-earth. Within any volume, such as The War of the Jewels, The Tale of Years, the furthest down the alphabet is the latest, and therefore preferred, version. Thus version D2 is accepted over D1, and any D over C, etc. For maps: Those in LotR, Hobbit, Silmarillion, and UT take precedence. Anything added (and which doesn't contradict the above) can be accepted from other HoME volumes, such as The Treason of Isengard, HoME 7. "Pictures by J.R.R. Tolkien" and "J.R.R. Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator" which have Tolkien's drawings vary quite a bit - any map contradicting LotR would be problematic, but augmenting LotR maps is fine. EtymolgyRoltK Appendix F, The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and HoME 5, The Lost Road, all are good sources. Tolkien's "Guide to Names in The Lord of the Rings" which was in early versions of "A Tolkien Compass," and explained the meaning of many names, is also a good source. Tolkien's sources take precedence over all others, and his internal contradictions, where present, should be mentioned. Other reputable linguistic sources may be quoted if identified. Examples would be the work of David Salo, Ardalambion, and others. Be very careful with sources, as there is much 'invented' by those eager for more words to use. Misc: "Letters of JRR Tolkien" will vary by date of the letter. A few non-Tolkien sources, such as "The Annotated Hobbit" and "The Atlas of Middle-earth" are good starting points, but the material should be checked against the Tolkien's - they should supplement but not contradict Tolkien's words. Quotes from or reference to these are acceptable, but Tolkien's words are preferred when possible. Such books as The Complete Guide to Middle-earth, written by Robert Foster, are known to have errors; anything in there must be carefully checked against Tolkien sources. The same is true of the Encyclopedia of Arda and some other online Tolkien encyclopedias, as their accuracy varies. Quotes from these should not be used.

 

The citation for Letters is supposed to follow the etymology of their names - I'll add it. Excellent! As I recall, it was a very nice, juicy etymology... The citation for tale of years is for the dates, and I'll remove it, since we're not currently citing where the dates in the fill-ins came from, unless there's controversy or contradiction. Very well-stated... (This was one of the very first batch of bios done, in beta testing, no less!) May I congratulate you on your good taste in first choice of subjects? I've revised the two entries, closer to your standard format - I hope you don't mind that I moved your quote to the 'history' section. Not at all... I'd have done the same for you. And of course I still have to add entries - their presence when Arathorn was killed, etc. Well, I revised the Arathorn bio so you can swipe the quote from there or from the Arathorn slain entry (I added all of his genealogical events).

 

I've revised the two entries, closer to your standard format They look great, Lyllyn! I have one concern: in the quote about the SoE in the Battle of the Field of Celebrant, I always try to include the fact that this sentence was "struck out in the typescript" -- in other words, Tolkien decided not to include it in the final printed version. It's just too beautiful a quote to leave out *fangurly sigh*, but I try to make its status clear. You can see how I do it in the entry for Battle of the Field of Celebrant... - Barbara P.S. In fact, I love this quote so much I designed a Challenge around it: The Sons of Elrond at the Field of Celebrant!

 

Overall, this looks great, Lyllyn! I have a couple of minor comments: Silmarillion for events (dates will come from other sources) Are there no dates in the Silmarillion? If there was a Silm date, would it trump the other sources? For dates: I would move the second sentence ("The LotR appendices...") above the first. EtymolgyRoltK Appendix F... Typo... Be very careful with sources, as there is much 'invented' by those eager for more words to use. Do you want to give an example, or would you prefer not to be explicit? (Not sure of the site name anyway... something like Grey Company?) Very nice work! - Barbara

 

Excellent work, Lyllyn! Are there no dates in the Silmarillion? If there was a Silm date, would it trump the other sources? Yes, there are dates for some events, although they tend to be vaguer than the annals. In The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Ch 13, Of the Return of the Noldor for instance, there are dates mentioned for several events. For example: "When twenty years of the Sun had passed, Fingolfin King of the Noldor made a great feast", "And when again thirty years had passed, Turgon son of Fingolfin left Nevrast where he dwelt and sought out Finrod his friend upon the island of Tol Sirion, and they journeyed southward along the river" and "When nearly one hundred years had run since the Dagor Aglareb, Morgoth endeavoured to take Fingolfin at unawares". So I would suggest the Silm date probably takes precedence over the annals if there is a conflict, but the annals may help pinpoint the less precise dates. I think all First Age dates are likely to require careful analysis to determine the best date to use and to ensure they're consistent with other HASA timeline events. For dates: I would move the second sentence ("The LotR appendices...") above the first. Agreed - the LotR appendices should take preference over anything in HoMe. Lyllyn wrote: Be very careful with sources, as there is much 'invented' by those eager for more words to use. Barbara wrote: Do you want to give an example, or would you prefer not to be explicit? (Not sure of the site name anyway... something like Grey Company?) Even with the "reputable" sources, I would still want to go back to the Tolkien sources if possible. For example, I have a copy of the Dragon Flame Sindarin-English dictionary, which is a great starting point for etymological derivations, but I would consider it only a starting point. I used it when I came across Levain tad-dail as another name for Petty-dwarves, with no translation in that passage. Dragon Flame allowed me to work out where to look for the source of the translation (some of it was in the etymologies but some elsewhere). What I cited in my etymological note were the references in HoMe. Hope that helps Cheers, Liz

 

So I would suggest the Silm date probably takes precedence over the annals if there is a conflict, but the annals may help pinpoint the less precise dates. I think all First Age dates are likely to require careful analysis to determine the best date to use and to ensure they're consistent with other HASA timeline events. Yes, agreed. Even with the "reputable" sources, I would still want to go back to the Tolkien sources if possible. Yes, I agree with that, too. But what I was getting at is, do we want to warn people that certain sites are not to be given any credibility whatsoever? I've seen stuff (in stories) that purportedly came from a certain popular site, and it was often just flat-out wrong... Or would you rather not risk insulting anyone by mentioning it by name? I would certainly understand that... - Barbara

 

hey look great, Lyllyn! I have one concern: in the quote about the SoE in the Battle of the Field of Celebrant, I always try to include the fact that this sentence was "struck out in the typescript" -- in other words, Tolkien decided not to include it in the final printed version. It's just too beautiful a quote to leave out *fangurly sigh*, but I try to make its status clear. You can see how I do it in the entry for Battle of the Field of Celebrant... Thanks, Barbara. For a minute I thought I hadn't cited PoME for this, but now I see what you mean. I'll make it clearer that the quote didn't make it into App A. It is a nice quote, isn't it?[Drools] Lyllyn

 

Some revision, see if it conveys what is needed. Hierarchy of sources for dates, maps and etymology Note : In any instance where Christopher Tolkien points out an error noted in a 'higher' source, his correction would prevail. LotR The Hobbit Silmarillion Unfinished Tales HoME volumes in reverse order The portions that have particular implications for Resource assistants entering data: For dates: The LotR appendices dates take precedence over UT and Peoples of Middle-earth. The War of the Jewels, HoME 11, and The Peoples of Middle-earth, HoME 12, should take precedence over The Lost Road, HoME 5. Where The Silmarillion has dates, they should be used, but most dates for First Age events will have to come from other sources. Within any volume, such as The War of the Jewels, The Tale of Years, the furthest down the alphabet is the latest, and therefore preferred, version. Thus version D2 is accepted over D1, and any D over C, etc. For maps: Those in LotR, Hobbit, Silmarillion, and UT take precedence. Anything added (and which doesn't contradict the above) can be accepted from other HoME volumes, such as The Treason of Isengard, HoME 7. "Pictures by J.R.R. Tolkien" and "J.R.R. Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator" which have Tolkien's drawings vary quite a bit - any map contradicting LotR would be problematic, but augmenting LotR maps is fine. Etymology: RotK Appendix F, The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and HoME 5, The Lost Road, all are good sources. Tolkien's "Guide to Names in The Lord of the Rings" which was in early versions of "A Tolkien Compass," and explained the meaning of many names, is also a good source. Tolkien's sources take precedence over all others, and his internal contradictions, where present, should be mentioned. Other reputable linguistic sources may be quoted if identified, but quotes from Tolkien are preferred. Examples would be the work of David Salo, Ardalambion, and others. Be very careful with sources, as there is much 'invented' by those eager for more words to use. Misc: "Letters of JRR Tolkien" will vary by date of the letter. A few non-Tolkien sources, such as "The Annotated Hobbit" and "The Atlas of Middle-earth" are good starting points, but the material should be checked against the source - they should supplement but not contradict Tolkien's words. Quotes from or reference to these are acceptable, but as noted above, Tolkien's words are preferred when possible. Such books as The Complete Guide to Middle-earth, written by Robert Foster have errors; anything in there must be carefully checked against Tolkien sources. The same is true of the Encyclopedia of Arda and some other online Tolkien encyclopedias, as their accuracy varies. Quotes from these should not be used.

 

Everything looks fine, except: EtymolgyRoltK Appendix F, ... should be: Etymology: RotK Appendix F, ... - Barbara

 

Thanks, Barbara - you mentioned it before and I missed it on the revision. I've edited it the post instead of posting it again. Take another look, everyone, and if nothing else seems problematic, it goes into the tools and templates thread. Lyllyh

 

I can't see any other issues. Looks ready to post in tools and templates to me. Cheers, Liz

 

Aside from the missing 'o' in Etymology , it looks fine. - B

 

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