Forum: Reference Library - entries, requests, etc.

Discussing: Resource Admin Discussions (MOVED to Workshop)

Resource Admin Discussions (MOVED to Workshop)

Hi, This is the continuation of Resource Admin Discussions - Thread 4, which is now inactive.

 

 

Re: Resource Admin Discussions (Current)

As promised, I renamed the thread called Preferred Practices in Resources (formerly Useful Tools and Templates) to just plain Preferred Practices in Resources. - Barbara

 

 

Re: Entry for the One Ring (and other stuff)

(This was moved from the old thread; it is in reply to this post) I was actually hoping Marta would do the timeline events for accession and deaths of the rules (Kings and Stewards) of Gondor, since that would mean I wouldn't have to do them in order to complete the Gondorians bio.. Well, if any one of us is going to get back into doing genealogical events, may I SSP my post on proposed title formats for genealogical events? I'd like any final feedback you have on my proposals now, since it just occurred to me that I never put it into the Preferred Practices thread. (Remember that the phrases in {braces} are optional.) In case you don't remember why I am so fanatic enthusiastic about promoting consistent standards, I think it's explained pretty well here. - Barbara

 

 

Re: Entry for the One Ring (and other stuff)

Hi folks Rounding up a few things: We now have a quick-and-dirty entry for the One Ring. Anyone else is more than welcome to pick this one up and expand it. Barbara's suggestions for titles for the Gondorian events Thanks for these, Barbara. They do indeed make sense and are very helpful. I have adopted them all. (And yes, although I was trying to follow what I could remember of your suggested naming conventions, I was too lazy to go and find the thread and was mostly cribbing event titles out of the Tale of Years!) Regarding Ciryaher Hyarmendacil I of Gondor conquers the Harad, no we don't know any more about the battle than the quote I have. (Appendix A seems to be the fullest account of Gondorian history apart from the Northmen/Rohirrim stuff you've covered off. HoMe 12 has earlier drafts that actually contain less information.) I have been aware of the need to divide these kinds of events into separate entries where there are distinct phases, or where something like a king dying happens as part of the main battle. I'll certainly bear that in mind in future! Barbara wrote: I never finished the Battle of the Morannon, despite having added one or two associated events. I won't be getting back to it for a while, though it's on my list... Well, it will take me a while to get through the remaining 1500 years of Gondorian history before I get to the Battle of the Morannon, but I'll try to remember that you will probably be doing more entries when I get there. Well, if any one of us is going to get back into doing genealogical events, may I SSP my post on proposed title formats for genealogical events? You may indeed! I think these work fine, with the caveat we should always try to minimise the length of a title while maintaining clarity! My only query is about [Person], and was prompted by your examples for [Person] weds [Another Person], where I'm unclear why some people get qualifying information and others don't. In particular, why does Vidumavi get the qualifier "Daughter of the King of Rhovanion" and Fíriel doesn't get the qualifier "Daughter of Ondoher, King of Gondor" (since I think Fíriel is almost as obscure as Vidumavi)? If you could talk me through your reasoning here, it would help. But, really, I'm happy for these to be posted in Preferred Practices as they stand! Edit: And I noticed when I was doing some links for the One Ring entry that we have a bunch of "Marriage of " and one "Wedding of" titles for event entries that probably need editing into the "A Weds B" format. Phew! I think that's everything for the moment. Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Resource Admin Discussions (Current)

[This is in reply to Lyllyn's post in the old thread.] Hope this is the right place for this comment! Absolutely the right place! Excellent. I've not been very involved in Resources, so I wasn't sure. Great work, Marta, thanks. You're welcome. This points up even more something needed in the redesign - uncoupling bios from the story search character dropdown. I didn't know they displayed on the story dropdown list. I suppose I should look before I leap. Is there any way to change the status so that they don't appear on the list? (I'm thinking of the equivalent of the offlist setting for stories.) If so, should we maybe do that until the redesign? I really thought they only appeared on the longer list that I thought was available only in certain sections of the site, such as from a list of stories in the general or beta archive. You learn something new every day, I think. :-) You might wait on the others until we can change the bio/character list link so the character list doesn't get too unwieldy. Yes, I think that's a good idea. I'll hold off on creating the bios for the southern kingdom until later, then. Let me know when that's in placde. Can I interest you in some other evil research work in the interval? Of course you can. Is there anything that particularly needs to be done? Has much work been done on The Hobbit? Or is it perhaps time to start working on that hobbits research article again? Marta

 

 

Re: Resource Admin Discussions (Current)

[This is in response to Barbara's post # 40275 in the old thread.] I probably should have read the rest of the thread before answering... ah, well... I have the same problem. Actually with me, it's more a problem that I read the whole thing, and then by the time I come back to answer I forget what's been previously said and so end up repeating myself. So should I enter it under "One Ring, The" and put "The Ruling Ring" in the Other Names field? Yes, and: Isildur's Bane [snip long list Barbara, I'm impressed! I never would have thought of all those names. Note that I'm impressed, not surprised -- I've come to expect this out of you. And just in case Liz hasn't already decided, I vote for "One Ring, The" myself. Marta

 

 

Re: Resource Admin Discussions (Current)

[This is in reply to Barbara's post # 40276 in the old thread.] I've been a busy little bee this morning - on Liz's suggestion, I've created biographies for all the kings and chieftains of the Northern Line, adding the bare bones facts provided in "(ii) THE REALMS IN EXILE - The Northern Line - Heirs of Isildur". I'll do the southern line and the stewards at some point as well. Excellent, and thank you! You're welcome! I'm reading the appendices for the first time straight through, and it wasn't hard to enter the information. Please keep track of the new links and send them to me -- just plain text is fine. That's because, if there are more than ten new entries at a time, I can't copy the links from the New Entries lists... which I try to monitor daily, but don't always remember. Okay, that makes sense. I didn't think to keep a list, but I can go through and get them and will send them along to you soon. Marta

 

 

Re: Resource Admin Discussions (Current)

[This is in reply to Barbara's post # 40279 in the old thread.] [Liz said] I was actually hoping Marta would do the timeline events for accession and deaths of the rules (Kings and Stewards) of Gondor, since that would mean I wouldn't have to do them in order to complete the Gondorians bio.. [Barbara replied] Ummm, I think I did all the genealogical events for the Kings of Gondor -- let me check. (Marta is welcome to the Stewards, of course.) The problem is that ruling stewards, unless they happen to be named Mardil or Denethor, hold very little interest for me. I'm not sure why. And why Arnor's and Arthedain's kings should fasciante me so much, when most of them are mostly names on a page with not much supportint history, I really don't know. But they do, which is why I entered all the Arnor kings -- it gives me a framework to enter those tantalizing little quotes I'm always coming upon. That doesn't mean I won't do the stewards, there's just not the motivation for me. I'll get to them eventually... ;) Marta

 

 

Re: Entry for the One Ring (and other stuff)

We now have a quick-and-dirty entry for the One Ring. Anyone else is more than welcome to pick this one up and expand it. Thank you, Liz! Thanks for these, Barbara. They do indeed make sense and are very helpful. I have adopted them all. (And yes, although I was trying to follow what I could remember of your suggested naming conventions, I was too lazy to go and find the thread and was mostly cribbing event titles out of the Tale of Years!) Thanks again... it's probably time to add them to the Preferred Practices thread, so we can actually find them when needed! (BTW, your link points to the wrong post - should be to messageId=35161#36328 ) Regarding Ciryaher Hyarmendacil I of Gondor conquers the Harad, no we don't know any more about the battle than the quote I have. Sorry, I probably should have checked that before expounding on a theory that simply didn't apply... My only query is about [Person], and was prompted by your examples for [Person] weds [Another Person], where I'm unclear why some people get qualifying information and others don't. You're exactly right, that I thought that no one would recognize Vidumavi if I didn't mention her lineage. And I *did* believe that people would recognize Fíriel, since she is at least family of the Gondor royalty... but you've made me realize that that most likely isn't true. So, I will add the extra info to Fíriel's wedding. Thanks for pointing that out... I did intentionally mention the Vidumavi wedding in the Proposed Title Format for Genealogical Events post because it is an exception to the standard. I wanted it to be clear that if more information seemed necessary, that it should be included. I thought there would only be one exception, but now that you point out that there are (at least?) two... Maybe I should expand the marriage standard a bit, from: [Person] Weds [another Person] to: [Person] {Title} Weds [another Person] {another Title} What do you think? (Under the definition of Title, I could also put a note like: In the case of marriages, the titles are only used for obscure characters.) And I noticed when I was doing some links for the One Ring entry that we have a bunch of "Marriage of " and one "Wedding of" titles for event entries that probably need editing into the "A Weds B" format. Agreed. We can all do that as we have time. I was waiting for buy-in on the proposed titles before doing that wholesale... - Barbara

 

 

Re: Resource Admin Discussions (Current)

Yes, and: Isildur's Bane [snip long list Barbara, I'm impressed! I never would have thought of all those names. Note that I'm impressed, not surprised -- I've come to expect this out of you. Thanks, Marta! My notes on the One Ring, including the alternate names, are still in the "stumbled upon" phase: whenever I'm reading something, and I stumble upon a quote (or a name) about the O.R., I copy it to my tidbits file. The One Ring seems to get mentioned everywhere... - Barbara

 

 

Re: Resource Admin Discussions (Current)

The problem is that ruling stewards, unless they happen to be named Mardil or Denethor, hold very little interest for me. I'm not sure why. And why Arnor's and Arthedain's kings should fasciante me so much, when most of them are mostly names on a page with not much supportint history, I really don't know. But they do, which is why I entered all the Arnor kings -- it gives me a framework to enter those tantalizing little quotes I'm always coming upon. Marta, I'm of the very firm opinion that, if something strikes you as interesting and you want to research it for Resources, do it! And if something doesn't interest you -- like the Stewards -- don't worry about it! In fact, I disagree with Lyllyn. Thunder begins to rumble ominously. If you feel motivated to enter Bios for kings right now, STRIKE while the iron is hot! Er, not you, lightning... you should think calm, peaceful thoughts... yeah, that's it... I honestly believe that the character list is already long, and a few more entries won't make that much difference, and it would be worth harnessing your talent, your energy and your interest when they're available. So there! Thunderbolts repeatedly strike Barbara... (But then, I am helplessly and totally at the mercy of my stubborn, pig-headed, obstinate, fickle Muse... did I mention that he's stubborn?) - Barbara

 

 

Re: Entry for the One Ring (and other stuff)

Barbara wrote: t's probably time to add them to the Preferred Practices thread, so we can actually find them when needed! Agreed! (BTW, your link points to the wrong post - should be to messageId=35161#36328 ) Er, no, I linked to exactly where I intended to which was your suggested revisions for the titles of the Gondorian events I entered, which was what I was discussing. I didn't get on to talking about your proposed titles for genealogical events until much later... You're exactly right, that I thought that no one would recognize Vidumavi if I didn't mention her lineage. And I *did* believe that people would recognize Fíriel, since she is at least family of the Gondor royalty... but you've made me realize that that most likely isn't true. I think it's the sort of thing that people either know in tedious levels of detail or have no idea about at all. I wanted it to be clear that if more information seemed necessary, that it should be included. Which I totally agree with! I thought there would only be one exception, but now that you point out that there are (at least?) two... LOL This is Tolkien, Barbara. There are always more exceptions than you think to everything! Maybe I should expand the marriage standard a bit, from: [Person] Weds [another Person] to: [Person] {Title} Weds [another Person] {another Title} What do you think? (Under the definition of Title, I could also put a note like: In the case of marriages, the titles are only used for obscure characters.) Yes, that sounds good. I'm also thinking that there may be some first age examples when there are intermarriages between the three houses of Edain and it may be useful to say stuff like "X of the House of Hador marries Y of the Haladin"? (X usually being reasonably well known and Y getting pretty much that single mention - what often matters is that the marriage is to the other clan. So that, for instance, Morwen thinks she can send Turin to Doriath for fostering because of her kinship with Beren.) And I noticed when I was doing some links for the One Ring entry that we have a bunch of "Marriage of " and one "Wedding of" titles for event entries that probably need editing into the "A Weds B" format. Agreed. We can all do that as we have time. I was waiting for buy-in on the proposed titles before doing that wholesale... Sure, sounds good to me. Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Entry for the One Ring (and other stuff)

Er, no, I linked to exactly where I intended to Umm, not sure what I was thinking there or whether I was, actually... I think it's the sort of thing that people either know in tedious levels of detail or have no idea about at all. Yes, that's right. In my defense, I didn't realize until after I posted my reply that I didn't enter the Arvedui Weds Fíriel (which was Marriage of... until I changed it a few minutes ago), so it's not that I was thinking stupidly as usual, it was that I didn't think of her at all! Yeah, that's it... LOL This is Tolkien, Barbara. There are always more exceptions than you think to everything! Sigh! So true! I'm also thinking that there may be some first age examples when there are intermarriages between the three houses of Edain and it may be useful to say stuff like "X of the House of Hador marries Y of the Haladin"? Yes, very good idea! Maybe I could change the definition of [Title] to include the alternate of "of the people"? For that matter, I should probably change it to include things like "daughter of X, King of Y", as well... and I would include examples, of course. Okay, let me mess around with the [Title] definition, and get back to you... - Barbara

 

 

Re: Resource Admin Discussions (Current)

n fact, I disagree with Lyllyn. Thunder begins to rumble ominously. If you feel motivated to enter Bios for kings right now, STRIKE while the iron is hot! Er, not you, lightning... you should think calm, peaceful thoughts... yeah, that's it... I honestly believe that the character list is already long, and a few more entries won't make that much difference, and it would be worth harnessing your talent, your energy and your interest when they're available. I've used up all my thunderbolts, so you don't have to worry. Haven't had time to get down to Ye Old Thunder Shop, and probably won't for a while. It's a problem, and I don't know the answer, aside from decoupling the lists. All the lists on the member side include every bio. On the public side it's the shorter list, and there's no "offlist" option. I genuinely don't know how problematic it is for people searching for stories. Right now it's two clicks for me to get past "A" on the list, but I don't really use the character story search. Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Resource Admin Discussions (Current)

It's a problem, and I don't know the answer, aside from decoupling the lists. All the lists on the member side include every bio. On the public side it's the shorter list, and there's no "offlist" option. I genuinely don't know how problematic it is for people searching for stories. Right now it's two clicks for me to get past "A" on the list, but I don't really use the character story search. Give some thought to how you want to use the character list. Showing and hiding is simply a matter of setting flags, but I have to have a pattern I can use for the flags. Makes sense to me that there should be an off-list status for character bios. Also, as an FYI, it's probably time to do some canvasssing of the public status stories for how often particular characters show up, and to add/remove itesm from teh public character list as a result. I have some stats for what people search for, but no sense of what characters are getting written - which would return results. Toodles - Ang

 

 

Re: Resource Admin Discussions (Current)

Hi Ang Showing and hiding is simply a matter of setting flags, but I have to have a pattern I can use for the flags. Makes sense to me that there should be an off-list status for character bios. Just so I can get my head round what's possible, would you be able to set flags so that we could, for example, have the following things in combination: * a limited and targeted list of names in the "select a character" dropdown in the story search on the public side - this would cover the most popular characters written about. * a limited and targeted list of names in the "select a character" dropdown in the story search on the members side. This may or may not be more extensive than the one on the public side. * a more comprehensive list in the dropdown list for the bios search on the bios page which would include all bios we want to make visible to members in the resources area, including ones not appearing in the story search dropdown. These bios would also all list on the see all bios page. * an offlist status which allows bios with this status to be accessed from the admin area (and the ability to "view" them as they would appear to members if accessible through the see all bios page), but which would not display those names in any dropdown lists or on see all bios. This could be used for bios currently being worked on and for researchers to flag up to other reseachers that a bio is needed but they don't have the time or interest to do it. As an aside, I think it's mentioned in the resources redesign document over at the resources redesign workshop that an "offlist" status would be useful for any type of resources so that researchers could "park" quotes or simply flag up that a bio, place, thing or timeline entry is needed. I can see there may be issues that will need to be ironed out: e.g. what happens when someone links to something that was visible and, for whatever reason, later gets taken offlist temporarily,. But can we start dreaming along these lines? Cheers, Liz

 

 

The problems I create for myself....

I came across a lovely tidbit that I want to add into the Gondor places entry (and maybe some other places too): *** "In Gondor the word suza was still applied to the divisions of the realm, such as Anorien, Ithilien, Lebennin, for which in [Sindarin] the word lhann was used." The Peoples of Middle-Earth, HoME Vol 12, Part 1, Ch 2, The Appendix on Languages: On Translation (Note: from the context in the rest of this passage, suza is a Westron or Adûnaic word.) *** The trouble is, the word suza should have what I think is called a macron accent or ¯ over the u. I've looked in Ang's Special characters article and can't see an HTML code for this combination. If I'm missing it in the article, could someone point me in the right direction? Or let me know if an HTML code does exist but isn't in the article - and, if so, what it is? Or help me work out what to do if there is no HTML code..... TIA. Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: The problems I create for myself....

Don't know what it will do to the site appearance, but the unicode for it is  'umacr', '& # 363 ;',    # small u, macron accent remove spaces to use... Gwynnyd

 

 

Re: The problems I create for myself....

Thanks, Gwynnyd. I think I'd better wait until Ang lets me know if she's happy for us to use unicode characters, in case they do do something horrible to the site. Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: The problems I create for myself....

Number entities are fine to use on the site. Ang

 

 

Re: The problems I create for myself....

Thanks for confirming that, Ang! Edit: I have updated the Gondor places entry to include this quote. Edit 2: A warning: the HTML editor in resources doesn't seem to much like HTML codes with numbers beyond 255. It accepts and displays them correctly the first time, but If you go back in to edit the entry again, it has turned the HTML code in the boxes into the actual character (ie in this case, it shows the u with a macron) - then when you hit edit again, you get the character without the accent (i.e. just u) in the entry. I'm not sure if that's fixable (or needs fixing) or whether it's just a wrinkle researchers need to be aware of. Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Resource Admin Discussions (Current)

Hi Marta, I hope you don't mind, but I renamed your Eldacar Bio to "Eldacar of Arnor", so we can distinguish him from the King of Gondor who is also named Eldacar. (I actually have all sorts of quotes about him from my Kin-strife series, so might create a Bio someday -- will call it "Eldacar of Gondor".) We also should do the same thing for the two Tarondors, if anyone ever creates Bios for either one of them. Also, I copied all the new Bio links that you added, from #292 (Eldacar of Arnor) to #325 (Arador). Unfortunately, #301 (between Mallor and Celepharn - too lazy to look up who he would be) displays as blank. I already reported the problem to Ang. It probably just means that a required field is blank, or something like that. The upshot is, you don't have to send me the new links in an email. And congratulations for doing all those! - Barbara Update: Ang checked, and said that that entry is not in the database, So, there is no problem. Sorry!

 

 

More Gondorian timeline events

Hi folks *sigh* Why is it every entry seems to spawn a dozen more? I entered some more Gondorian timeline events as part of moving the Gondorians bio forward: Vinyarion Hyarmendacil II, King of Gondor, defeats the Men of Harad The White Tree of Gondor dies – the Great Plague Tarondor, King of Gondor, removes the King's House to Minas Anor Tarondor, King of Gondor, plants a seedling of the White Tree Osgiliath begins to fall into ruin Mordor is left unguarded Telumehtar retakes Umbar and drives out the Corsairs I think I've got the naming conventions right this time, but please feel free to suggest alternatives. Barbara – I also fiddled with the date on one of your events, Tarondor becomes King of Gondor, to make sure things listed in the correct order in the timeline. I put in the usual note about the date being nominal etc. And I can send you these links for your a spreadsheet when we're happy with them. (And woohoo, I get to steal, um, I mean make use of, Barbara's work on the Wainriders and the Ride of the Rohirrim in the next part ) Cheers, Liz Edit: and can I correctly post a hyperlink today? Apparently not.

 

 

Re: More Gondorian timeline events

*sigh* Why is it every entry seems to spawn a dozen more? I feel your pain... (literally!) I entered some more Gondorian timeline events as part of moving the Gondorians bio forward: Hmmm, I noticed a pattern: many of these events are related to the Great Plague; I think we may now need an Overview for that. (When I revised the existing Great Plague entry, I included all the quotes I could find, so it's fairly complete, but arranged it by geographical region -- so the reasons for Sauron's attack (and I do believe it was some form of biological warfare) are buried in the middle somewhere... might be worth rearranging it to incorporate some pieces of the Battle template, especially Prelude, Aftermath, and, now that we have these lovely events to link to, History...) (*Whimper*) I think I've got the naming conventions right this time, but please feel free to suggest alternatives. Aiiiiii, I feel like I've turned into the Terrible Enforcer of Onerous Standards or something... just because I'm so, er, generous with my opinions... Barbara – I also fiddled with the date on one of your events, Tarondor becomes King of Gondor Thank you! (And woohoo, I get to steal, um, I mean make use of, Barbara's work on the Wainriders and the Ride of the Rohirrim in the next part ) A few suggestions on event names -- and these are "suggestions", not "standards"! (As in, my mind works in mysterious ways sometimes...) Vinyarion Hyarmendacil II, King of Gondor, defeats the Men of Harad -> how about just "Haradrim"? (We even have a Bio under that name...) -> also, are you including both names ("Vinyarion" and "Hyarmendacil I") and the "KoG" title because of my desire to associate them in event names? That was only in reference to genealogical events, specifically ascensions and deaths. So, here I'd recommend simply "Hyarmendacil I defeats the Haradrim" or, if he hasn't taken the name yet and you want to be picky, "Vinyarion Hyarmendacil I defeats the Haradrim". The White Tree of Gondor dies – the Great Plague -> I'd recommend "during" or "after the Great Plague" instead of the dash, which could be interpreted as dying "of" the Great Plague... I don't think Sauron was quite clever enough to invent a biological agent that killed both people and trees... Edit: Actually, I think the White Tree died of grief... yeah, that's it... Tarondor, King of Gondor, plants a seedling of the White Tree -> in Minas Anor????? And, can I be really nasty and criticize your last batch of event names? These suggestions are due to the (purported) standards, and I'm sorry that I missed them before: Eärnil I of Gondor lost at sea -> Eärnil I, King of Gondor, dies at sea (or, dies lost at sea?) Ciryandil of Gondor slain in the Siege of Umbar -> Ciryandil, King of Gondor, slain in the Siege of Umbar (As always, the commas are optional.) On the Eärnil I one: The important part is to include the "King of Gondor". About the "lost" vs "died", I was thinking that people could search on "died" or "slain" and get all the death events -- but if you really prefer "lost at sea", it's a perfect descriptive phrase, despite not fitting the current death pattern. Do you think it's worth expanding the pattern in the title template to "died", "slain" or "lost"? I'm still working on expanding the Title part of the template, anyway... As usual, HTH and YMMV! - Barbara

 

 

Re: More Gondorian timeline events

Hi Barbara Hmmm, I noticed a pattern: many of these events are related to the Great Plague; I think we may now need an Overview for that. Yes I thought we did too. *smiles sweetly at Barbara* might be worth rearranging it to incorporate some pieces of the Battle template, especially Prelude, Aftermath, and, now that we have these lovely events to link to, History...) (*Whimper*) Agreed. You could arrange the history and aftermath sections by geographical region. So the history would have the common events, then events affecting Arnor/Eriador, events affecting Gondor, events affecting Rhovanion etc. Hmm, do we still need many more separate entries for events in other regions (eg Arnor)? Maybe I could help you tackle it once I've got Gondorians out of the way. Aiiiiii, I feel like I've turned into the Terrible Enforcer of Onerous Standards or something... just because I'm so, er, generous with my opinions... {{{Barbara}}} The point of the "standards" (to me) is to make the research library as useful and unconfusing as possible for users. So searches return consistent and comprehensive results, event titles are accurate and precise, and people can make sense of any random timeline event even if their Tolkien knowledge isn't as deep as that of us geeks. Which brings me to your suggestions (which are ALWAYS welcome, even if I don't agree - they at least force me to examine my rather woolly thinking). I'm going to run through the ones I agree with and then discuss the one that I don't exactly disagree with but where I'm running into issues that are tipping me into Entish Naming and which I think we should discuss further. Vinyarion Hyarmendacil II, King of Gondor, defeats the Men of Harad -> how about just "Haradrim"? (We even have a Bio under that name...) Yes, Haradrim is good. Changed. The White Tree of Gondor dies – the Great Plague -> I'd recommend "during" or "after the Great Plague" instead of the dash, which could be interpreted as dying "of" the Great Plague... I don't think Sauron was quite clever enough to invent a biological agent that killed both people and trees... Edit: Actually, I think the White Tree died of grief... yeah, that's it... Or someone forgot to water it? But yes, "during the Great Plague" is good. I was trying to make sure we distinguished the two separate occasions during the Third Age when the White Tree dies. Changed. Tarondor, King of Gondor, plants a seedling of the White Tree -> in Minas Anor????? Yes. I think I had this originally and then cut it on space grounds (See my comments elswhere in this post for why I'm struggling with this stuff.) Changed And, can I be really nasty and criticize your last batch of event names? These suggestions are due to the (purported) standards, and I'm sorry that I missed them before: *kicks cat then sweetly smiles at Barbara and says perkily* Sure, Barbara! No problem! Eärnil I of Gondor lost at sea -> Eärnil I, King of Gondor, dies at sea (or, dies lost at sea?) "dies, lost at sea" works better for me. Just "dies at sea" could imply many causes of death, whereas I think the ships simply disappear in a storm... As for adding "lost", I think there are only two other characters where we are less than certain what happened to them (and even then, we're pretty certain): Eärnur lost in Minas Morgul and Baldor in the paths of the dead. In both cases, you have either "dies" or "slain" with additional information, which works for me as a general template. Anyway, changed. Ciryandil of Gondor slain in the Siege of Umbar -> Ciryandil, King of Gondor, slain in the Siege of Umbar Yes. Changed. OK, the tricky one: Vinyarion Hyarmendacil II, King of Gondor, defeats the Men of Harad -> also, are you including both names ("Vinyarion" and "Hyarmendacil I") and the "KoG" title because of my desire to associate them in event names? That was only in reference to genealogical events, specifically ascensions and deaths. So, here I'd recommend simply "Hyarmendacil I defeats the Haradrim" or, if he hasn't taken the name yet and you want to be picky, "Vinyarion Hyarmendacil I defeats the Haradrim". In part yes. Let me explain my reasoning here. First of all, what I really want to call this event (Treebeard would be proud) is Vinyarion, King of Gondor, defeats the Haradrim and takes the title Hyarmendacil II. Here's my logic: 1) He's called Vinyarion at the time he defeats the Haradrim, so "Hyarmendacil II defeats the Haradrim" would be wrong and illogical to me. 2) You said people often didn't know who the Tar-, Ar- and Arpeople were, and I think few people would recognise the name Vinyarion as a KoG. They might grasp at Hyarmendacil being a KoG if they know Hyarmen means "south". 3) I'm not completely sure how the events are indexed, but I think putting "King of Gondor" in there (and some other non-geneaological events) makes sure an event will index on Gondor, which strikes me as important.. 4) He takes the name of Hyarmendacil because of that victory, not for any other reason. Again, it''s that tension between length, clarity, precision, search consistency, etc.... Given what I want to call this entry is clearly too long, I can live with Vinyarion Hyarmendacil II, King of Gondor, defeats the Haradrim as a compromise., but I'm reluctant to lose either of his names or the KoG part. Thoughts? (And I'll send you the updated events for your spreadsheet once we're both happy on this one.) Cheers, Liz

 

 

More questions on timeline events

Hi folks I was sort of running into this problem earlier, but it’s just become more acute! I’ve come across several possible entries that seem to me to be significant to telling the history of Gondor, but which are mostly already subsumed in other events already in the database. I think Barbara, Lyllyn and Loqi have all had a hand in creating the existing events. I wanted to open a discussion as to how we deal with researchers working on overlapping parts of the timeline but coming at it from different perspectives and therefore with a different sense of what events are involved, what each event entry should encompass, how sets of events should interrelate and so on. Of course, the simplest answer may be just to talk about it with a specific researcher on a case by case basis (and that may still be necessary) and see whether the existing entries need revising and who should do that. However, I'm wondering about whether it may be confusing for users to have several events which overlap - and also whether I'm simply slicing events too finely and seeing too much significance in things that don't deserve their own event.... Here are the examples I’ve just discovered, regarding the end of the line of Kings in Gondor: (Edit: I just decided we need two three more entries and have added them into this list) Related to Arvedui, heir of Araphant, weds Fíriel, daughter of Ondoher, I think we need a precursor event “Gondor and Arnor renew communications and form an alliance” In the Battle of Fornost I see the need for some sub-events that are significant for Gondor: “Eärnur brings a fleet to Lindon”, “Eärnur is shamed in the Witch-king’s attack” (or something like that, struggling to encompass this one in a neat and snappy title) and "Glorfindel prophesises the Witch-king’s end". Lyllyn and Loqi who created the “Battle of Fornost” event may hate me for suggesting this, but I would like it to become an overview with quite a lot of events hanging off it. In the Fall of Minas Ithil, I think key sub-events are “The palantír of Minas Ithil is captured” and "Many inhabitants flee Ithilien after Minas Ithil is captured." Related to Eärnur, King of Gondor, presumed slain by the Witch-king and Eärnur accepts the Witch-king's challenge I see other key events: “The Witch-king issues his first challenge to Eärnur” and "Minas Anor is renamed Minas Tirith". Also I think Eärnur accepts the Witch-king's challenge should really become “Eärnur accepts the Witch-king's second challenge” and not cover the first challenge. (The fact there are two challenges and Mardil restrains Eärnur the first time seems significant to me. Mardil didn’t just cheerily wave Eärnur off at the first opportunity to get rid of the Kings…) I hope all that makes sense. What do people think? Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: More Gondorian timeline events

Agreed. You could arrange the history and aftermath sections by geographical region. So the history would have the common events, then events affecting Arnor/Eriador, events affecting Gondor, events affecting Rhovanion etc. Yes, something like that. It might not actually be too much work, seeing as how it will be rearranging already-linked quotes, not doing more research. (Although it might now be worth also mentioning the Gift of Cirion in the Aftermath section...) Hmm, do we still need many more separate entries for events in other regions (eg Arnor)? Maybe I could help you tackle it once I've got Gondorians out of the way. Checking the Great Plague entry: I think that the end of the Dúnedain in Cardolan might be the only other event worth a separate entry (Dúnedain die out in Cardolan from the GP?), and I can do that one easily. Let me know what you think. Actually, I think the White Tree died of grief... yeah, that's it... Or someone forgot to water it? *Snort* Yeah, that's it... *kicks cat then sweetly smiles at Barbara and says perkily* Sure, Barbara! No problem! Umm, this is still an imaginary cat, right? Please tell me that no real cats were harmed in the production of this conversation... As for adding "lost", I think there are only two other characters where we are less than certain what happened to them (and even then, we're pretty certain): Eärnur lost in Minas Morgul and Baldor in the paths of the dead. In both cases, you have either "dies" or "slain" with additional information, which works for me as a general template. Okay, I'll leave the template as is. Thank you for putting up with my stream-of-(purported)-consciousness ramblings... Given what I want to call this entry is clearly too long, I can live with Vinyarion Hyarmendacil II, King of Gondor, defeats the Haradrim as a compromise., but I'm reluctant to lose either of his names or the KoG part. Okay, I understand your reasoning now (and, in particular, am relieved that it had nothing to do with me). But I'll play devil's advocate for a moment and suggest shortening it further to: "Vinyarion, Hyarmendacil II of Gondor, defeats the Haradrim". As usual, YMMV... HTH! - Barbara

 

 

Re: More Gondorian timeline events

Hi Barbara Checking the Great Plague entry: I think that the end of the Dúnedain in Cardolan might be the only other event worth a separate entry (Dúnedain die out in Cardolan from the GP?), and I can do that one easily. Let me know what you think. Yes, that seems to be the only specific event we don't have yet. All the rest of the information is about more generalised effects of the Great Plague. (Things like Calenardhon being denuded would go in an Aftermath section, I think?) (Oh and nice current entry!) Umm, this is still an imaginary cat, right? Please tell me that no real cats were harmed in the production of this conversation... Yes, an imaginary cat! Although real cats may be harmed if any of my neighbours pets foolishly decides to get under the carefully pegged-down netting and dig up my newly planted vegetable plot. (I mostly like cats, but not when they use certain parts of my garden as their little tray... ) Okay, I'll leave the template as is. Thank you for putting up with my stream-of-(purported)-consciousness ramblings... That's OK. You put up with mine! Whether anyone else can handle our geeky obsessiveness is another matter. But I'll play devil's advocate for a moment and suggest shortening it further to: "Vinyarion, Hyarmendacil II of Gondor, defeats the Haradrim". As usual, YMMV... That I can live with! Changed. And thanks. Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: More Gondorian timeline events

(Things like Calenardhon being denuded would go in an Aftermath section, I think?) Yes, that sounds right. (Ummm, impure thoughts of nude Rohirrim -- oh, wait, they weren't there yet; erm, nude boring Gondorians just doesn't do anything for me...) (Oh and nice current entry!) Thanks, but I just added a couple of new quotes and rearranged what was already there... come to think of it, that's all I'm doing now. (And I added Dúnedain of Cardolan perish in the Great Plague. Notice your moderating influence on my tendency to capitalize everything in sight?) Although real cats may be harmed if any of my neighbours pets foolishly decides to get under the carefully pegged-down netting and dig up my newly planted vegetable plot. When I had a vegetable garden (biodynamic French-intensive double-dug dirty-fingered heaven) (which I miss!) (but my back doesn't - I was a LOT younger then), squirrels were the problem, aka rats with bushy tails... That I can live with! Changed. Good! - Barbara P.S. You don't have to send me these new links, I'll copy the addresses from your post above...

 

 

Re: More questions on timeline events

I wanted to open a discussion as to how we deal with researchers working on overlapping parts of the timeline Good idea! I'm game. But... (see next response) Of course, the simplest answer may be just to talk about it with a specific researcher on a case by case basis (and that may still be necessary) and see whether the existing entries need revising and who should do that. Even if we decide on guidelines, I think it will still be necessary to chat when two researchers are working on similar areas -- just as we do now. I, of course, am all for breaking up those events for which we have lots of detailed information about sub-events into separate Event entries (can you tell?). However, my Resources muse is extraordinarily fickle, and deserts me on a moment's notice. So, some topics I'll research to death and break up a lot, but on others, I'll slap together a couple of quotes and declare it done. The difference is my level of interest in the topic (sometimes I'm just adding an entry because we really need it, but I don't particularly care about it) and my energy and attention and free-time level, which varies day by day in sometimes inexplicable ways . So, I don't want to create expectations that someone who is on the downside of those factors (like me) wouldn't be able to deal with, because I think it's more important to fill in holes in the library than to make every entry into a sterling masterpiece. (Especially since we can always return to an existing entry and expand it later.) Does that make sense? I think we need a precursor event “Gondor and Arnor renew communications and form an alliance” Agreed. In the Battle of Fornost I see the need for some sub-events that are significant for Gondor: ... Lyllyn and Loqi who created the “Battle of Fornost” event may hate me for suggesting this, but I would like it to become an overview with quite a lot of events hanging off it. *Snert* My corruption work here is done. Seriously, Liz, this is where the continuing communication and the Pending Resource Library Corrections thread comes in: I'd post a message saying: "Pretty please can I break this entry up?". (The answer, BTW, has so far always been yes... and often surprisingly enthusiastic!) “Eärnur is shamed in the Witch-king’s attack” (or something like that, struggling to encompass this one in a neat and snappy title) How about "W-dude Disses the E-dude"? (Seriously, you might be able to find a snappier title by using the WK as the subject, not the possessive of the object of a preposition... like "WK shames E". You could add "in the Battle of Fornost", too...) "Glorfindel prophesises the Witch-king’s end" Um, isn't it "prophesies"? That's all that I can find in my (American) dictionary -- which usually mentions British spelling variants... (And maybe "doom" instead of "end"?) In the Fall of Minas Ithil, I think key sub-events are “The palantír of Minas Ithil is captured” and "Many inhabitants flee Ithilien after Minas Ithil is captured." Sounds right, though I would recommend that you stay away from using "The" as the first word whenever possible. (When we link events, they all sort under "The", and dumb people like me can never find them...) Oh, and didn't we talk about leaving out the unecessary "is" to be more like the "headline"-style of the Tale of Years? So, "Palantír of Minas Ithil captured" or "Palantír captured from Minas Ithil"? And I'd just say "Inhabitants flee Ithilien after the Capture of Minas Ithil" (assuming that the "Capture of Minas Ithil [- Second Age]" is an Event? I always try to give a unique name to a battle, then reuse that name in the other sub-event titles...) Related to Eärnur, King of Gondor, presumed slain by the Witch-king and Eärnur accepts the Witch-king's challenge I see other key events: Yes, I agree with all of your suggestions. I do think that two separate events (especially separated by several years) should have two Event entries, even though they are closely related. I struggle with a similar problem myself, having to do with multi-day/month/year events. For example, I originally did the multi-day Siege of Erebor as one entry; I now think that it is better to split up sieges into Siege Begins and Siege Ends entries. And we have one entry, about a Steward IIRC, that says something like So-and-so Rules as SoG, and it covers the entire timeline. That really doesn't show up well on a flat timeline, where we have no way of displaying the lengths of events and so how they overlap chronologically. (Sorry for the tangent. Yes, I'd split up Eärnur's two challenges.) HTH! - Barbara

 

 

Re: More Gondorian timeline events

Hmmm, I noticed a pattern: many of these events are related to the Great Plague; I think we may now need an Overview for that. Yes I thought we did too. *smiles sweetly at Barbara* Okay, it's done. Please let me know what you think -- I haven't proofread it thoroughly or checked the links yet. Did I miss any relevant event links, Liz? I think I got your last batch... Added several new things: Great Plague: Overview Dúnedain of Cardolan perish in the Great Plague These are quick-and-dirties, so I could reference a couple from the GP entry: Egalmoth becomes Steward of Gondor Egalmoth, Steward of Gondor, dies Beren becomes Steward of Gondor Beren, Steward of Gondor, dies Beregond becomes Steward of Gondor Beregond, Steward of Gondor, dies - Barbara

 

 

Re: More questions on timeline events

Hi Barbara Thanks for your thoughts! Hmm, I don't think I wanted to create "guidelines" (Aiee! I've clearly established myself in your mind as She Who Wants Rules ) but, as you say, set expectations for researchers and not create false (unreasonably high) ones. I, too, will sometimes slap together basic entries for something I need that supports the current topic of interest but which doesn't interest me enough to go into "scary" research mode. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that! Something in the database is almost always most definitely better than nothing. So my main concern is that I don't want researchers to feel, as we start bumping into each other's entries more often, that other researchers are criticising them for "not doing a good job" or "not being thorough" or simply saying "WHAT were you thinking dividing it up like THAT?!?" Or that they can't still do a "quick and dirty" single entry for something if they don't want to pursue all the possible sub-entries for whatever reason. And sometimes it's not at all obvious until you come at it from a very different perspective that something might need dividing into several events. (For instance, I realised overnight that I wanted sub-events that would allow people to trace the history and occupation of Ithilien and Osgiliath, the history of the palantiri and the various White Trees, and the line of Kings in Gondor. Unless you happen to have that particular set of obsessions, you probably wouldn't automatically see the need for some of my suggested sub-events.) So I wanted to make it clear (and perhaps just this discussion is enough ) that I want to do things to other people's entries not because they're not good and valuable already but because I simply have a different agenda and context that means I'd like the entries to do something slightly different. Seriously, Liz, this is where the continuing communication and the Pending Resource Library Corrections thread comes in: I'd post a message saying: "Pretty please can I break this entry up?". (The answer, BTW, has so far always been yes... and often surprisingly enthusiastic!) I think my "problem" is that the title of that thread makes my requests feels like a criticism in itself. The only time I've posted in there was for something that looked a bit odd to me (it conflicted with an entry I was doing) and that I actually thought was perhaps wrong. Because of "corrections" in the title (I'm not saying I'm being rational here!) I would feel more awkward posting in there to say "You have a perfectly accurate entry but I want to split it up or re-jig it". So maybe all we need is a new or renamed thread which doesn't imply a "correction" of an "error" but simply that someone else wants to do some work around an existing (unproblematic) entry that means the existing entry would probably also benefit from some changes as well. "Proposed Changes To Existing Resource Library Entries" or something? Edit: Duh! Liz hits herself over the head We probably already have a place for doing all this nitpicking over titles and/or "can I muck about with your existing timeline entries" stuff: the Research library - timeline events workshop. I think all the most active researchers are members - and, of course, everyone is very welcome to join and take part in the debate. Does that make sense? And thanks for all your suggestions. All very good. (And umm, yes, it should be "prophesies", but my copy of Word seems quite happy with "prophesises".... stupid program that can't recognise perfectly legitimate words while letting through incorrect ones, and don't get me started on the inadequaces of the grammar checker....) Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: More Gondorian timeline events

Hi Barbara A very nice entry for the Great Plague. I really like the way it makes clear the influence of the Plague on Saruman settling in Isengard. Edit: And all the new links seem to be there. I only found a few picky points when proofreading it: The waning of the Northmen of Rhovanion began with the Great Plague, which appeared there in the winter of the year 1635 and soon spread to Gondor. ... [The mortality] was greater in Rhovanion -> The ellipsis looks a bit odd after the period, but I'm not sure how else you could handle it. The Dunlendings suffered, like all the peoples of Arnor and Gondor -> I kmow you linked Gondor right at the top of the entry, but it seems odd to me that it isn't linked here. No doubt the people further east had been equally afflicted.... -> Could you link "people" to the Easterlings entry? It was at this time that an end came of the Dúnedain of Cardolan, ->Your link to the Dunedain (which is fine) just reminded me that we really do need separate Dunedain, Dunedain of the North (which is where this link should go eventually) and Gondorians bios. Well done! Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: More questions on timeline events

Hmm, I don't think I wanted to create "guidelines" ... but, as you say, set expectations for researchers and not create false (unreasonably high) ones. Excellent. I perfectly agree. So my main concern is that I don't want researchers to feel, as we start bumping into each other's entries more often, that other researchers are criticising them for "not doing a good job" or "not being thorough" or simply saying "WHAT were you thinking dividing it up like THAT?!?" Ah, now I understand. You wish to offer to expand timeline entries without implying any criticism of the current one. Good idea! For instance, I realised overnight that I wanted sub-events that would allow people to trace the history and occupation of Ithilien and Osgiliath, the history of the palantiri and the various White Trees, and the line of Kings in Gondor. LOL! The line of Kings never interested me, but every single one of the others has enticed me at some point. I've mostly managed to sidestep them, but the Osgiliath one nearly bit me -- added a couple entries before I got hold of myself... Back, BACK foul Nuzgûlim! (Of course, you realize that to properly point out all the entries for one of these threads, you should add an overview? ) I think my "problem" is that the title of that thread makes my requests feels like a criticism in itself. Okay... Does that make sense? Yes, perfectly, and with your mention of the Workshop, (and after I made sure that the Workshop forum entries show up on the regular new forum posts list, which controls where I check for posts each day) I'll make two some suggestions (or reword some of yours): First, I suggest that you start a new thread in the Workshop for this, and call it something like "Proposed Improvements to Event Entries" or something like that -- no criticism implied. Then, I'll forward the Pending Resource Library Corrections thread to the Workshop, and call it something like "Possible Problems with Resource Library Entries" (since it's not limited to Events). (Or maybe "Questions about RL Entries"?) Hmmm, maybe another one, too. "Announcements and Feedback Requests" or something like that, for the "I've added X and would like your feedback..." posts... (or, we could put a Race announcement in the, say, Races of Men thread here, but point to the Workshop thread for feedback...) Then, we should each announce the Workshop threads in the appropriate threads here, so everyone who occasionally checks this forum will know to join the Workshop. I'm hoping that these suggestions might kickstart activity in the Workshop, and also move the *cough*scarier*cough* posts from here to there, where they're not quite so public. Oh, wait, I see that your Workshop is specifically about Timeline Events -- some of these threads may not be appropriate for that single purpose... Would you like to make it a general-purpose Resources Discussions workshop with single-purpose threads? Or would you rather leave the whole Workshop single-purpose? (I can say that I, personally, haven't visited it much because timeline events -- um, especially very early ones -- haven't been on my mind until the last day or so. Sorry!) What do you think? - Barbara

 

 

Re: More Gondorian timeline events

A very nice entry for the Great Plague. I really like the way it makes clear the influence of the Plague on Saruman settling in Isengard. Thanks, Liz! Yes, it was worth doing a little more research now that the nice framework for showing consequences was available... I will link all the words that you recommended. Thanks! On a longer entry, occasionally one link per linkee is not enough. And, yes, I will appreciate having a separate Dúnedain of the North entry. Loqi has volunteered for that one, but warned that it would take her a while. The waning of the Northmen of Rhovanion began with the Great Plague, which appeared there in the winter of the year 1635 and soon spread to Gondor. ... [The mortality] was greater in Rhovanion -> The ellipsis looks a bit odd after the period, but I'm not sure how else you could handle it. Ah, I ran into this problem with a couple of quotes that applied to more than one section. The sentence that I removed here (actually, moved to the Gondor section) was: "In Gondor the mortality was great especially among those who dwelt in cities." The other problematic quote was: "No doubt the people further east had been equally afflicted, so that the enemies of Gondor came chiefly from the south or over sea." (description applies to the East, consequences apply to Gondor...) My question is, which do you think is worse: - chopping up quotes so that each part only occurs in one section (and thus having to paraphrase words and phrases, possibly introducing inaccuracies), or - leaving the quotes whole, and repeating parts of them (a phrase, or up to one whole sentence) in two separate sections? Edit: An example of the second option would be to have "No doubt the people further east had been equally afflicted..." in the Eastern description section, and "No doubt the people further east had been equally afflicted, so that the enemies of Gondor came chiefly from the south or over sea." in the Gondorian consequences (aftermath) section. Last night I thought it was better to chop the quotes up, but in the light of day (and since you noticed some of the awkwardness it created), I'm beginning to lean the other way... your opinion would be most welcome. Thanks for your feedback! - Barbara

 

 

Re: More questions on timeline events

Hi Barbara I'm answering your post in a strange order as it makes more sense to me to tackle it that way. I see that your Workshop is specifically about Timeline Events -- some of these threads may not be appropriate for that single purpose... Would you like to make it a general-purpose Resources Discussions workshop with single-purpose threads? I think the best thing would be to retitle it to make it a general Resources Discussions workshop. When I first set it up, I envisaged different workshops would be neede for different aspects of the library or resources. Now I've seen more workshops in action, I think a single workshop for everything will be sufficient. (BTW the workshop is now actually owned by the RM, because I thought it should be a site workshop rather than personally owned, if open, workshop. So I'll talk to Lyllyn and/or Gwynnyd about getting it retitled and ensuring that entries in the Workshop discussion show up on the regular new forum post list on the main home page.) Re the new threads in the workshop forum, I suggest: all threads should cover all kinds of entries. If you see my utterly evil suggestion at the end of this post, you'll discover it's not just event entries I may want to mess with.... * Proposed changes to existing entries * Queries about resource library entries * Announcements and Feedback requests I really like this last one! I think we will have to work out the balance between discussing things in the workshop, posting here inviting people to join the discussion over there, and feeding back the results from the workshop over here. I think we could also have a "Entries needed" thread where we can say "I noticed we need an entry for X" and *if* that happens to nuzgul some poor soul er, I mean fits in with something someone else is working on, they can volunteer to pick it up. The workshop would allow us to test out how much we might actually use some of the things that are being suggested for the Resources redesign. I'm hoping that these suggestions might kickstart activity in the Workshop, and also move the *cough*scarier*cough* posts from here to there, where they're not quite so public. Yes, that all sounds good. I'll talk to Lyllyn about it. And from earlier in your post I've mostly managed to sidestep them, but the Osgiliath one nearly bit me -- added a couple entries before I got hold of myself... Back, BACK foul Nuzgûlim! (Of course, you realize that to properly point out all the entries for one of these threads, you should add an overview? ) Aha, I have another cunning plan. I wasn't considering an overview event but thinking we should create history timelines within entries for places or things.... Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: More Gondorian timeline events

Hi Barbara And, yes, I will appreciate having a separate Dúnedain of the North entry. Loqi has volunteered for that one, but warned that it would take her a while. Right. Umm, didn't mean to sound impatient! Just happy that we were doing that. After all, it's not as if someone not a million miles away from my sofa still hasn't got around to those MotWM entries.... My question is, which do you think is worse: - chopping up quotes so that each part only occurs in one section (and thus having to paraphrase words and phrases, possibly introducing inaccuracies), or - leaving the quotes whole, and repeating parts of them (a phrase, or up to one whole sentence) in two separate sections? My preference is for repeating parts, up to a whole sentence. I think making it easier to read the entry outweighs any (very slight) irritation over the small amount of repeitition. The way you've structured that particular entry, people may just go and look at the sections for the region that interests them anyway, rather than reading the whole entry. HTH Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: More questions on timeline events

Sorry, I've been offline most of the last few days, just catching up. I agree that many of these now should be made "Overview". Thanks for doing that with the Great Plague. If no one gets around to it by the time things ease up for me, I will tackle the Battle of Fornost. I also agree completely with doing as much as we can of the geeky process stuff over on workshop - thanks, Liz, for starting things off. I was planning to start discussion of the redesign when my time eased up - it will somewhat ease up this week, but will continue tight for at least another one to two weeks. If someone else wants to kickstart, be my guest! Lyllyn

 

 

Re: More questions on timeline events

I think the best thing would be to retitle it to make it a general Resources Discussions workshop. Good! And I saw your email to Lyllyn and Gwynnyd... very good idea. Re the new threads in the workshop forum, I suggest: all threads should cover all kinds of entries. Fine. * Proposed changes to existing entries * Queries about resource library entries * Announcements and Feedback requests I really like this last one! I think we will have to work out the balance between discussing things in the workshop, posting here inviting people to join the discussion over there, and feeding back the results from the workshop over here. Good! I agree about the balance. I think we could also have a "Entries needed" thread where we can say "I noticed we need an entry for X" and *if* that happens to nuzgul some poor soul er, I mean fits in with something someone else is working on, they can volunteer to pick it up. An excellent idea! (We can start small, with Arda and Eru Ilúvatar... ) Do you think it's worth structuring this like the Places Entered threads, with the master list at the top, and people volunteer or suggest additions in later posts? The advantage is that the list is all together (Edit: in alphabetical order), the disadvantage is that there is a potential bottleneck, in that only one person can update the top post in a thread. Aha, I have another cunning plan. I wasn't considering an overview event but thinking we should create history timelines within entries for places or things.... Ah, yes, that also works very well. (I think I started adding History sections when I was on a Roads kick last year...) I've done so in many entries, like Osgiliath and the White Tree of Gondor (both of which I should update with your new event links... *grumble*) - Barbara

 

 

Re: More Gondorian timeline events

And, yes, I will appreciate having a separate Dúnedain of the North entry. Loqi has volunteered for that one, but warned that it would take her a while. Right. Umm, didn't mean to sound impatient! I don't believe that Loqi took it that way. *I* might have sounded anxious because you reminded me that the entry that I'm *currently* working on could use that link -- and that I'd want to go back and change it when we did get a DotN entry. Then I remembered that putting in placeholders seems to work very well (i.e. change the underlying entry, not the link), so I thought I'd solve the immediate issue and buy time for the final entry. My preference is for repeating parts, up to a whole sentence. I think making it easier to read the entry outweighs any (very slight) irritation over the small amount of repeitition. Thanks, I've done so and I do like it better. - Barbara

 

 

Re: More Gondorian timeline events

Liz, When I have several sub-events linked to an Overview, I preface each event with something like: "An event in the Great Plague; see that entry for an overview:" You can see an example in my Dúnedain of Cardolan perish in the GP entry. Would you like to add that intro to your Great Plague-related events? - Barbara

 

 

Re: More questions on timeline events

I agree that many of these now should be made "Overview". Thanks for doing that with the Great Plague. You're welcome! If no one gets around to it by the time things ease up for me, I will tackle the Battle of Fornost. Excellent! I was planning to start discussion of the redesign when my time eased up - it will somewhat ease up this week, but will continue tight for at least another one to two weeks. If someone else wants to kickstart, be my guest! I'm juggling too many things right now to kickstart it... sorry! - Barbara

 

 

Freaky Ostoher

Okay, I am just totally freaking out here. I was on the Resources Search page, and typed in 'Ostoher'. Except that I'm sleepy, so I typed it into my (Firefox) browser's address box (you know, where the http://www stuff goes?). And I got sent to the Encyclopedia of Arda's entry for Ostoher. I'm going to go to bed now, and see if I can sleep with all this melodramatic Twilight Zone music twanging through my mind... - Barbara, who just did it again to make sure she wasn't seeing things... *Rod Serling is dead, Rod Serling is dead, Rod Serling is dead: he is not narrating in my head...*

 

 

Resources Discussion Workshop

Hi folks With Lyllyn's permission, I have temporarily taken over the previously titled "Research library - timeline events" workshop and turned it into a more general Resources Discussions workshop. I will hold on to being manager for a few days until I'm sure i have it set up correctly and don't need to make any more changes. I will then hand it back to the HASA RM to manage, and have it made into a Site Workshop again (at the moment, it's an Open workshop). Barbara asked for the discussion associated with the workshop to show on the main Welcome page, so that people can easily see when there are new posts. This seems like a very good idea. However, in order to do this, I had to get rid of the existing discussion (which only had one post in it anyway) and create a new discussion, so anyone who was signed up for e-mail alerts (I think this was Ang and Loqi) will need to sign up again. Sorry! I've posted some threads to start off with. Barbara, I've left it up to you to transfer Pending Resource Library Corrections across to a "Queries about resource library entries" thread in the workshop discussion. "Entries needed" thread An excellent idea! (We can start small, with Arda and Eru Ilúvatar... ) *snork* Do you think it's worth structuring this like the Places Entered threads, with the master list at the top, and people volunteer or suggest additions in later posts? The advantage is that the list is all together (Edit: in alphabetical order), the disadvantage is that there is a potential bottleneck, in that only one person can update the top post in a thread. I think that's an excellent idea, despite the disadvantage of the bottleneck of editing the top post. Do we need to separate the list into diffferent types of entries ie Bios, Places, Things and Timeline Events, and then arrange it alphabetically within that? If we do it this way, the thread needs to be started by whoever volunteers to maintain the lists. I think that's all for now on the new workshop. Let me know what you think, here or over there! Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: More Gondorian timeline events

Barbara wrote: Would you like to add that intro to your Great Plague-related events? Excellent suggestion and done! I also added it to one of your events as well (the one about King T and his heirs dying). So all the events in the Overview are now linked with that. Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: More questions on timeline events

Lyllyn wrote: If no one gets around to it by the time things ease up for me, I will tackle the Battle of Fornost. Over in the Resources Discussions workshop,I offered to take on redoing this entry as an overview as part of my needing to do several sub-events for it for the Gondor timeline. So if you're OK with that, I'll handle it, probably in the next few days or so. I was planning to start discussion of the redesign when my time eased up - it will somewhat ease up this week, but will continue tight for at least another one to two weeks. If someone else wants to kickstart, be my guest! Well, I did clone a chapter and provide some comments. I wasn't sure where to go from there. I think it would help if you could set up a discussion connected to the forum as a place to start the debate. Cheers, Liz (And I think I've caught up with everything in this thread now...!)

 

 

MOVING this thread to Workshop!

Hi, Please continue this thread in the Workshop: Resource Admin Discussions (current)

 

 

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