Forum: Reference Library - entries, requests, etc.

Discussing: Minor canon characters

Minor canon characters

I realized the usefulness of a 'supporting character' list like the factsheets when I was writing 'In Defense of the Light' and kept having to look for characters who could have been in Sirion, like Egalmoth and Voronwë. I'm sure others have the same issues, and that lots of research gets duplicated.

Ang had a good suggestion, Use the generic titles like "Elves" and
"Hobbits" on the bio list, link to a research article
"that is dedicated to very, very minor characters, one chapter/page per
character, which would provide as much info as possible on them. They could be added to as needed and the pages could be named and ordered alphabetically."

So, naturally, I am insane enough to want to start it.

I encourage everyone to contribute so we can build a database.
Even if it's one line (such as Evranin, Elwing's nurse, of whom nothing else is known) just the existence of the canon character is useful. I
welcome any commentary or suggestions on this.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

I could do one for Theoden's wife Elfhild since I researched her recently.

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

I can do minor Hobbits as they show up in my research. Dwarves, too, though those won't be on the research plate for a while.

Ang

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

I already have Elmo done (which came about while writing up Celeborn's bio). I have a feeling I'll be doing Celeborn's immediate family, which is easy since there's so little about them. Did you want a list of names?

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

I'd like to contribute to this - I could do some minor Silmarillion/UT characters - but I haven't got the faintest idea how to go about technically, or how this will work. You clikc on 'Elves', for instance, and then - what happens?

Finch

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

I'll do Hurin, Warden of the Keys, if anyone's interested? What's the format for contributions, here? If it really is just a line or two then the compilation could easily become a considerably larger task than the data acquisition.

Tavia

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

What's the format for contributions, here? If it really is just a line or two then the compilation could easily become a considerably larger task than the data acquisition.

Are you ever right about that!
I want to think a bit about it, then I'll post some options and request comments. Just off the top of my head we could do a separate 'chapter' for each as Ang suggested, great for Beregond although that seems silly for someone like Evranin. We could do it by event, or place, or time period, or...

If anyone has ideas, please post or email.

So far we have:

Beregond - Ashe
Bergil - Ashe
Egalmoth - Lyllyn
Elfhild - Sorne
Elmo - Ying
Evranin - Lyllyn
Hobbits, misc - Ang
Hurin - Finch

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

Hurin - Finch

That was me (Tavia aka Firerose). At least I think so!

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

First thing we should do is create a research article through the Resources admin area (you know where this is, Lyllyn), one for each of the peoples.

Then each character collection can be linked to the appropriate general character set.

I'm going to go make one on Hobbits right now to serve as an example.

Ang

PS - created. The "Hobbits" overview now links to a research articles called "Hobbits - Minor Characters" and Otho Sackville-Baggins is the first entry.

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

That was me (Tavia aka Firerose). At least I think so!

I'm sorry Tavia! ::hits self on head a few times::
Answering two different posters and I goofed.

New list:

Beregond - Ashe
Bergil - Ashe
Egalmoth - Lyllyn
Elfhild - Sorne
Elmo - Ying
Evranin - Lyllyn
Hobbits, misc - Ang
Hurin -Tavia
Undefined Silmarillion/UT characters - Finch

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

We could do it by event, or place, or time period, or...

With the minor characters I've been coming across, any of the three categories work for me.

For those we're writing up, should we also organize the data in the character bio format?

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

With the minor characters I've been coming across, any of the three categories work for me.

What we're looking at is doing the 'chapter' per character organized alphabetically, then lists/indices of what characters were where or when, etc.

For those we're writing up, should we also organize the data in the character bio format?

I think it will be character dependent. One of the minor characters I found for a story has one sentence about her, obviously not needing that format. Some others have quite a bit. If you can use the format, fine. Use what seems to make sense for the amount of information you have.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

Given the changes to the review process that are being discussed and voted on on the HA list, there won't be any changes to existing resource formats any time soon.

So, we need to proceed with the minor characters in the formats now available. This should be no problem, just means that the information will have to be emailed to me directly, and I will enter it in the appropriate minor characters article.

Very small minor characters with a just a line or two of information can have several on one page in the email, I'll take care of the rest.

If anyone has a really long piece on the one of the 'major' minor characters, you can post it in beta instead and email me. Whatever will work better for you is fine.

We will also need to think about index lists so as to make all this useful.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

Lyllyn, I just put a bio of Angrod in the beta section; is this the way you like to see it done?

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

I will put my stuff for Hurin in the beta section; my e-mail strips accents, random spaces and italic/bold formatting.

Tavia

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

And I've moved Elmo over to beta as well.

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

I have added Angrod and Húrin as 'chapters' to Elves and Humans respectively. Ying, Elmo is still set to draft. If you are ready I can still go in through admin and transfer it over, I will wait for you to tell me when.

Since I am the 'author' of the category, my name shows up as author on everything, but I have listed each of you at the top of the page as the author of that page.

Check it over and see how it looks. If it looks right, the ones in beta can be set to off-list, and eventually deleted.

Yea!

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

Elmo is still set to draft.

Oops, forgot to make the chapter public. That's done now. Go ahead, Lyllyn...thanks!

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

The Angrod bio looks right to me. I'll set the beta version to off-list.

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

I'd suggest linking these minor character lists from the main character bios page as well, as this was where I looked first. There's already a slot, I notice, for Elves and Hobbits (though not for Men or Humans). Perhaps expand within the main character bios list so that one entry reads:

Elves -- general --> links to info on species
Elves -- minor characters --> links to minor list

Oh, and by the way, the transfer of Hurin lost his italics (I was trying to distinguish between fact and my speculation) -- I don't know if this matters? It wasn't all that important, but I noticed that other character bios had done this and thought it might be the form.

Tavia

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

Oh, and by the way, the transfer of Hurin lost his italics (I was trying to distinguish between fact and my speculation) -- I don't know if this matters? It wasn't all that important, but I noticed that other character bios had done this and thought it might be the form.

Thanks Tavia, I missed that! It should be fixed now, see if there is anything else. It wasn't a set form, but I think it's a great idea.

I don't think it's currently set up to link to more than one discussion, or at least I haven't been able to. I'll try to find out more.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

It should be fixed now, see if there is anything else. It wasn't a set form, but I think it's a great idea.

That looks great! Thanks. I do think it's a sensible convention to separate fact from speculation, that way people are clear to form their own interpretations.

I don't think it's currently set up to link to more than one discussion, or at least I haven't been able to. I'll try to find out more.

Looks like Denethor links off both Research Articles and Character Bios -- unless there are two articles -- so it should be possible!

Thanks, Lyllyn, for your work in organising this! It should be a very useful resource.

Tavia

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

Looks like Denethor links off both Research Articles and Character Bios -- unless there are two articles -- so it should be possible!

Originally I thought you wanted the elves character bio link to go both to the minor characters article and some of the other elf articles. I gather that's not what you mean.

Could you clarify this for me? From the elves bio in the character bios list, I show that it is linked to the minor characters article. Is this not showing up for you? Or am I misunderstanding? (quite possible this hour of the morning.)

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

Ah, ok, I see it now. I must have focused on the main text towards the bottom of the screen, below the headings, and simply missed the link at the top! Is it possible to make the text somewhat larger, as I'm sure I'm not the only one who skims?

I still don't see any link for Men or Humans, though? Unless I'm just being stupid (and without even the excuse of early morning, it's 4.30pm on this side of the Atlantic!).

Tavia

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

Elmo looks fine, Lyllyn. I've moved the beta one off-list.

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

I still don't see any link for Men or Humans, though? Unless I'm just being stupid (and without even the excuse of early morning, it's 4.30pm on this side of the Atlantic!).

No, you are correct. There isn't a listing for humans in the drop down character list. The closest thing is Dúnedain. I'll have to look into it, but I know the list is being kept to what is needed to find stories, so I'm not sure if it can be added or not.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

I've just put a page containing two very short bios of minor characters (Turgon's wife Elenwe and Nerdanel's father Mahtan) in the beta section. They don't belong together, but I happened to have them both ready. Is this a problem; should I give such characters a page of their own next time?

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

: I've just put a page containing two very short bios of minor characters (Turgon's wife Elenwe and Nerdanel's father Mahtan) in the beta section. They don't belong together, but I happened to have them both ready. Is this a problem; should I give such characters a page of their own next time?

No problem at all, Finch. Since I have to copy/paste the material anyway, as opposed to just changing the setting, it doesn't matter. Once it is transferred take a look and make sure it is what you want. When you are satisfied, you can move the beta to off-list. If anyone wants me to delete your off-list material, let me know.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

Finch, it's ready for you to check over. Post or email any changes.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

Thanks! No changes or additions I can think of.

I'll set the Elenwe/Mathan entry from beta to off-list, but don't delete it, as I intend to use it as a kind of container for future short bios. It's easier to change the title and replace the content than to create a new "story".



 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

Now that entries are coming in, I'm starting to think more about indexes. Since I've been working on characters from Gondolin, I have an index of minor characters from the Fall of Gondolin. I am posting it, with requests for ideas about setting up the indexes in general. If you spot an omission, by all means, add!

Gondolin: Elves

Duilin - Lord of the folk of Swallow
Ecthelion - Lord of the folk of the Fountain
Egalmoth - Lord of the folk of The Heavenly Arch
Galdor - Lord of the folk of the Tree
Hendor - House-carle of Idril
Legolas Greenleaf - Of the house of the Tree
Penlod the Tall - Lord of the folk of The Pillar and The Tower of Snow
Rog - Lord of the folk of the Hammer of Wrath
Salgant - Lord of the folk of the Harp
Voronwë

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

I am posting it, with requests for ideas about setting up the indexes in general.

I might have missed something in this forum but I am confused on the purpose of the indexes. Is it suppose to tell the users how to find a certain person's bio? Would it be necessary if we can just find it through the research articles? or does it have another purpose?
Also, where are you going to post the indexes?

~Loqi

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

I might have missed something in this forum but I am confused on the purpose of the indexes. Is it suppose to tell the users how to find a certain person's bio? Would it be necessary if we can just find it through the research articles? or does it have another purpose?

I envision the indexes being useful when there are 20 or more names in each minor characters section, and you need to find one to fit into a story, as opposed to knowing the name of the character you want and just going to read the bio.

Example:
I'm writing something that involves Gondolin. I need minor characters who could have been there, but I don't know any. I don't want to read through 20 chapters in the article, checking each minor character to see if they could fit the bill.

Instead, I will look through an index for 'Gondolin', see the names, and then go directly to those names to see if any will work.

Imagine someone scrolling through every hobbit minor character to find one who lived in the right place at the right time.

The more minor characters that are entered, the more important this will become to make it usable.

Also, where are you going to post the indexes?
This is up for discussion, but it could be in the Introduction section.

Any ideas, comments, suggestions, 'this won't work'?

Lyllyn


 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

It's in the beta section again, and the bio it contains right now is that of Olwe of Alqualonde.

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

It's in the beta section again, and the bio it contains right now is that of Olwe of Alqualonde.

Olwë is transferred. Check it over - there was no special formatting, so it should be unchanged.

This could get addictive.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

This will be a very useful feature! Could I help? I could do several gondorians and people from Arnor during the time of the kings, since that is what I'm currently working on, and I've been doing some research on it (Pelendur, Ondoher, Artamir, Faramir, Arvedui, Firiel, Aranarth, the Lossoth, etc.) Don't know whether that will be of much interest to anyone beside myself, but if any of you are interested, I could e-mail my info, or post it to beta, whatever is best.

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

This will be a very useful feature! Could I help? I could do several gondorians and people from Arnor during the time of the kings, since that is what I'm currently working on, and I've been doing some research on it (Pelendur, Ondoher, Artamir, Faramir, Arvedui, Firiel, Aranarth, the Lossoth, etc.) Don't know whether that will be of much interest to anyone beside myself, but if any of you are interested, I could e-mail my info, or post it to beta, whatever is best.

Of course you can help! I'll dragoon anyone even half way willing! (maybe I should have said "Oh, I don't know... let's see... well I guess if you're extra good and eat all your vegetables...")

And yes, the characters you name will be great, and useful. This will be a database for everyone, and we run the gamut from hobbits to orcs, trees to 4th age.

I have a slight preference for email if it is just as easy for you, but either way is no problem.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

We are making progress: here is the current list, and I think many of us are just posting without signing up, which is fine.

Angrod - Finch (Posted)
Beregond - Ashe
Bergil - Ashe
Egalmoth - Lyllyn (Posted)
Elfhild - Sorne
Elenwe - finch (posted)
Elmo - Ying (Posted)
Elemmakil - Lyllyn (Posted)
Evranin - Lyllyn (Posted)
Gereth - Lyllyn (Posted)
Hobbits, misc - Ang
Hurin -Tavia (Posted)
Mahtan - Finch (posted)
Olwe - Finch (Posted)
Otho Sackville-Baggins - Ang (Posted)
Undefined Silmarillion/UT characters - Finch
Voronwe - Lyllyn (Posted)
Third Age Arnorians - Starlight

I know that lots of authors have already done this type of research for fics, they just don't realize how useful what they already have could be for others.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

Olwë is transferred. Check it over - there was no special formatting, so it should be unchanged.

Looks all right to me.

This could get addictive.

On to the next one, then!

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

The next two, in fact: Edrahil and Nellas are in the beta section (in one document).

Finch

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

Much belated notice due to backhoe and travelling, but they are posted. Please check and let me know if there are any corrections.

The good news, we are very close to the capability of members to add a chapter to a group article, so that anyone may add a minor character. I expect we will do the same for timelines. I'll let everyone know in Resource Announcements as soon as it is ready.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

The 'add a chapter' feature is going live. This means that any member may add a chapter to a group article such as 'Minor Canon Characters.' I expect we will also be able to use this for timelines.

To use this feature, go to the Research Article page under Resources. There are three links under Research Articles, go to the right hand link 'Add a chapter' which will take you to instructions on how to do this. Although this will permit additions to any Research Article, it should be used for collaborative articles only, unless you have author permission.

Have fun with our new toy!

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

The minor characters list for elves is now long enough that it should have an index. I am soliciting suggestions for organizing this. I currently have a placeholder for it in the Elves:Minor Characters article. The ways I can think of to organize it:
Places: Tirion, Gondolin, etc.
Time: First Age, etc.
Family: Relatives of... (not sure if this would be useful or not).

What other ideas can you think of?

lyllyn

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

This is somewhat irrelevent, but is there a reason as to why some of the chapters in the Elves-Minor Characters article are skipped?
It went from 4 and jumped right to 9 and 25 to 28 etc...

~Loqi

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

This is somewhat irrelevent but is there a reason as to why some of the chapters in the Elves-Minor Character article are skipped?
It went from 4 and jumped right to 9 and 25 to 28 etc...


Yes, I wondered if anyone would notice that. Since I have to change all 'downstream' numbers every time new chapters are added, I got lazy today and put in some spacer numbers so I don't have to shift all the numbers next time. As chapters fill in around it, I'll eventually have to shift everything again.

Loqi, I put up a brief, rough index. Take a look and see what you think. I envision people who don't know the character names coming to look for a suitable character, but I'm not really sure how most people will wind up using this.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Minor Hobbit Characters

Just a reminder to Hobbit fans that these aren't exclusive collections - anyone who has done some research on a minor Hobbit (anyone besides Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Rosie, Merry & Pippin would count, I think) (And Lobelia, as she has her own list entry).

Anyone want to do Otho? Saradoc? Paladin? The Old Took? Esmeralda? Belladonna? Fatty and/or Estella Bolger?Jump right in! There is now a way to submit a single chapter to an existing Character collection (ask Lyllyn for details).

Don't leave poor Otho all alone!

Toodles - Ang

 

 

Re: Minor Hobbit Characters

Don't leave poor Otho all alone!

And of course, Ang...You are allowed to do more than one.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Minor Hobbit Characters

In my copious free time...

Ang,
who is surrounded by evil people who keep throwing nuzgul at her

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

I envision people who don't know the character names coming to look for a suitable character, but I'm not really sure how most people will wind up using this.

I think it is very useful, especially for HoME deprived people (for the case of Elves and Humans). I can see how people can get overwhelming and confusing if they check out the list, and have no idea who's who and where they came from (e.g. me ). As for the usefulness of the index... like you said, people who needs to know about a character, maybe in a certain place.
As the number of minor character grows, they wouldn't want to go through every single one of the characters to find what they need, an index is probably the most useful tool.

By the way, may I suggest that you should change the "Tirion" catagory, permenantly to "Valinor"? Because Olwe doesn't live in Tirion and probably more elves would come up as not in that catagory. It would also avoid confusion. Thank you.

~Loqi

 

 

Re: Minor canon characters

By the way, may I suggest that you should change the "Tirion" catagory, permenantly to "Valinor"? Because Olwe doesn't live in Tirion and probably more elves would come up as not in that catagory. It would also avoid confusion.

Good point Loqi, I'll change that. Thanks.

Lyllyn

 

 

Beregond

Was just perusing Beregond's bio and had the thought that Bergil while conversing with Pippin mentions his grandfather's farm in Lossarnach. Is there any evidence as to whether it was his father's folk or his mother's?

I know when the men of Lossarnach marched in to join the armies of the West, their physical description doesn't fit Beregond's at all (they're short!), so I wonder...

Also I am recalling a conversation that Beregond's folk were driven out of Ithilien, but cannot remember if it was canon or fanfic.

 

 

Re: Beregond

: Was just perusing Beregond's bio and had the thought that Bergil while conversing with Pippin mentions his grandfather's farm in Lossarnach. Is there any evidence as to whether it was his father's folk or his mother's?

Lindelea, I can't find anything that clarifies this.

Also I am recalling a conversation that Beregond's folk were driven out of Ithilien, but cannot remember if it was canon or fanfic.

All I know about Beregond and Ithilien is he followed Faramir to Ithilien after the Ring War. Checking RotK, HoMe 8, 9, and 12, I can't find Beregond's people living in Ithilien before that - probably fanon.

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Beregond

That's a really good question, and you are right, it is not answered in the text (that I found).

For my genealogies, since Tolkien mentioned Baranor as being Beregond's father, I am listing his residence as Lossarnach, and am also assuming that Bergil's uncle Iorlas is Baranor's son. Mostly because Tolkien seems to sprinkle references to the same people over and over in different ways throughout his writings. If he intended a different grandfather, he probably would have given a name or some other reference to distinguish him from the already-named Baranor. But that's definitely speculative...

And Beregond's family might have moved to Lossarnach previously, like Morwen of Lossarnach's family. She is tall; maybe Beregond's family is related to hers (they are kinsmen of Imrahil, the Prince of Dol Amroth)...

Ah, all the little genealogical mysteries that Tolkien left us with...

P.S. Don't recall seeing anything about Ithilien, but that doesn't mean it's not there...

 

 

Re: Gwaihir

Can anyone tell me why there's a Gwaihir in the character bio section and a Gwaihir in the Thing - Animal section?

~Loqi

 

 

Re: Gwaihir

e: Can anyone tell me why there's a Gwaihir in the character bio section and a Gwaihir in the Thing - Animal section?

Temporary memory loss?

The character bio was created long before the Things section. It's a good question where animal "characters" should go. Shelob anywone?

What do you think, Loqi? Elena? Others?

lyllyn

 

 

Re: Gwaihir

The character bio was created long before the Things section. It's a good question where animal "characters" should go. Shelob anywone?

I think that animal characters, as in animals who have their own names, or even a few lines in the books, should be counted as a character. Because these animal characters do belong in some stories in the Archive, some even have a story of their own.

While animals, as in a species of animal in general (e.g. Eagles), should belong to the Thing section.

~Loqi

 

 

Re: Gwaihir

I agree.

Has a name: bio.

No name: things - animals.

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Gwaihir

Can anyone tell me why there's a Gwaihir in the character bio section and a Gwaihir in the Thing - Animal section?

Problem fixed! Gwaihir is only in character bios, Things has Eagles. Thanks for spotting this.

lyllyn

 

 

Re: Gwaihir

Problem fixed!

Oh goodies. Thank you!

~Loqi

 

 

Re: Beregond

Also I am recalling a conversation that Beregond's folk were driven out of Ithilien, but cannot remember if it was canon or fanfic.

Lindelea, I finally found it while looking for something else!

Here it is:

I love beasts, and we see them seldom in this stony city; for my people came from the mountain-vales, and before that from Ithilien. But fear not! The visit shall be short, a mere call of courtesy, and we will go thence to the butteries.’

It's from RotK, Book VI, Ch 1, Minas Tirith

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Beregond

O hurrah! I remembered it correctly, then! (I didn't imagine it or pick it up from fanfic and think it was canon, it really was from the original. whew, that's a relief.)

Thanks for letting me know. So will this go into the notes for Beregond's profile?

 

 

Another ? on Beregond

Just curious, was looking at his bio again and saw that he has a sibling named Iorlas.

Where does it say this, if anyone knows offhand? I am taking up once more my second Beregond story (left hanging all these months with 6 out of 10 chapters complete) and would like to work Iorlas in if possible.

Thanks,
Lin

 

 

Re: Another ? on Beregond

Lin, It's from Pippin's conversation with Bergil when they first meet (Minas Tirith chapter in Book V?) , when Bergil compares Pip's age to his uncle's.

 

 

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