Forum: Domain of the Dúnedain

Discussing: Introducing... You!

Introducing... You!

Who are your favourite Dunedain or what is it interests you most about the Dunedain realms? Stop in here, introduce yourself, and generally get to know each other. General chit-chat should be carried out in this thread.

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

Replying to your own posts... one of the first signs of insanity, I'm sure. But as I'm long past the point of "first signs," I shall proceed. Welcome to Domain of the Dúnedain. I am of course Marta, loyal Challenge Manager and pledged defender of Denethor's honour. More to the point, I'm friend of Tanaqui, and when she and I realised that there wasn't a forum devoted to discussion of the Dúnedain we decided to do something about it. Hence, this forum was born. I've posted what you might consider some "starter" threads. If you have a question or something you'd like to discuss that fits within those threads, then please post it there. If not, then please feel free to start your own discussion. Really... I'm okay with you doing that, so don't be shy. Now, to answer my own questions. If you were to ask me my favourite Dúnedain, Denethor would surely lead the list. Imrahil would also be up there, as would Beregond. (I'm not sure if he is ever described as being a Dúnedain per se, but he does share many qualities with the Dúnedain. And Isildur. Oh, yes, and Faramir of course, but mainly for Denethor's sake I think (sorry, Liz!). The two are just a very interesting pair. As to what I like most about the Dúnedain? I'd probably have to say their selflessness. Though that's not entirely the right word. They consider more than their borders, or at least they're supposed to. They still care about Gondor, but if Gondor survived some great evil and the rest of the world perished, I honestly don't think a Dúnedain would consider that a victory. Right. Enough of my blabber. If you like the Dúnedain or just want to learn more about them, then say so. Cheers, Marta

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

I don't know why, but I've always been more interested in the Northern rather than the Southern Dunedain. It was Aragorn who started it but now I'm attempting to write a fic about his parents, so I'm sure I will come up with lots of questions for this forum, once I've sorted out my plot a bit. Nic

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

I'm so glad you've started this one, Marta (and Liz). I just don't know what that is, exactly, that draws me to the Dunedain, but I just love them wholeheartedly. I guess there's that feeling of nostalgia underneath that makes me sympathyze with how they've managed to remain the kind of people they are in light of all they've lost and suffered. There's also that air of mystery about them: who they are, how they've managed to survive, and why the blood runs stronger in some and not others, though they be family (yes, why was the blood stronger in Faramir and not so much in Boromir. Does this have to do more with qualities of character rather than genetics?) My favorite Dunedain... oh, the list goes on and on. There's just so much to discover, to reveal, to bring to light about them! And, Marta, don't you think a Dunedain challenge would be at the order of the day? Thanks for setting this up! I think we'll have lots of fun times around. Cheers, Starlight

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

I don't know why, but I've always been more interested in the Northern rather than the Southern Dunedain. You know, Liz and I were discussing this as we came up with the thread prompts. For me, the Southern Dunedain are more interesting because we know more about them. Except for Aragorn and Halbarad to a lesser degree we don't really get to know them up close, and we don't have portrayals of their culture like we have of Gondor and Rohan. But that's not to say they're not cool. Once you have questions feel free to post them, and we'll do what we can. Cheers, Marta

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

I'm so glad you've started this one, Marta (and Liz). Thanks! I just don't know what that is, exactly, that draws me to the Dunedain, but I just love them wholeheartedly. Which is completely fine. Sometimes questions are better than answers, anyway. But you seemed to come up with a few answers as well. ;-) I guess there's that feeling of nostalgia underneath that makes me sympathyze with how they've managed to remain the kind of people they are in light of all they've lost and suffered. That's a good point, and one that hadn't really occurred to me. The fact that Gondor survived as long as it did (and Arnor as well) is simply amazing. There's also that air of mystery about them: who they are, how they've managed to survive, and why the blood runs stronger in some and not others, though they be family (yes, why was the blood stronger in Faramir and not so much in Boromir. Does this have to do more with qualities of character rather than genetics?) I think that last bit's more character than genetics. Though it is possible, when you're not dealing with purebreds, for offspring of the same people (i.e., siblings) to get unequal amounts of DNA. It's why I have green/blue eyes while my brother and sister have brown (both my parents have brown as well, though my dad's mum is blue-eyed. I got a stronger share of the blue-eye genes. But yes, I think Tolkien's talking about character traits. My favorite Dunedain... oh, the list goes on and on. There's just so much to discover, to reveal, to bring to light about them! Agreed! And, Marta, don't you think a Dunedain challenge would be at the order of the day? You said it, not me. Though I'm not disagreeing. What, specifically, did you have in mind? Cheers, Marta

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

Personally I regard the lack of precise information about the Rangers as a window of opportunity - of which I have taken full advantage! The contrast between the Dunedain of North and South is even more interesting. The one having lost all material advantages yet retained the hardihood and longevity that were the gifts of the Valar; and the other who've held on to a frayed remnant of their glory yet perhaps lost something of their soul. Certainly they've lost most of their special gifts.

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

Well met, Morwen. Personally I regard the lack of precise information about the Rangers as a window of opportunity - of which I have taken full advantage Lol - no shame there! That's precisely the reason I enjoy writing Smeagol so much, I think. The contrast between the Dunedain of North and South is even more interesting. The one having lost all material advantages yet retained the hardihood and longevity that were the gifts of the Valar; and the other who've held on to a frayed remnant of their glory yet perhaps lost something of their soul. Certainly they've lost most of their special gifts. Oh, I agree entirely, on both counts. It's a very interesting contrast. This actually brings up a question I've been wondering for some time. In RotK of course Denethor kills himself and tries to kill Faramir. Yet the Numenorean kings could "give back the gift" and die when they saw fit. Was this only restricted to the kings? I thought it was a possibility for all Numenoreans, but I don't have any specific evidence for that. Was it perhaps lost as the Gondorians declined? I would think that Denehtor and certainly Faramir, in whom the blood of Numenor ran almost true, could have given back the gift and then been burned -- it seems so much less painful. Cheers, Marta

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

I don't have a specific Dunedan that I like, but like Nic I prefer the Northern Dunedain to the Southern. I'm not completely sure why, but they just fascinate me. Especially the line of Kings and their struggle with the Witch-king. Are Numenoreans also considered Dunedain? If so, I'm fascinated with them too. I'm not quite sure what draws me so much to the Dunedain in particular, but I think a lot has to do with how they started out in Numenor and were all noble and such. For me, the early Dunedain are like the ideal humans, if that makes any sense at all. Arquen

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

*waves* to everyone Tanaqui here, the other half of the team that has brought you Domain of the Dunedain. (I go out for the day and come back to lots of messages) As anyone who has been anywhere near my fics will know, I have a small interest (*cough* obsession) with Faramir. I like exploring the contradictions of his character: he is in some ways extremely competent and self-confident, while being extremely self-effacing and modest. He also strikes me as one of the characters who most obviously wrestles with ethical issues when deciding what to do. I also find Denethor fascinating (and not just because of his relationship with Faramir but his relationships with everyone.). And I'm really learming to appreciate Aragorn, thanks to beta-ing fics for some HASA writers who write him extremely well. I think I like the Dunedain cultures because because of the weight of history and the sense of decline and renewal in them. Also, all the nice twisty politics! Morwen Tindormerel wrote: The contrast between the Dunedain of North and South is even more interesting. The one having lost all material advantages yet retained the hardihood and longevity that were the gifts of the Valar; and the other who've held on to a frayed remnant of their glory yet perhaps lost something of their soul. Certainly they've lost most of their special gifts. I love that contrast: Gondor is apparently more successful (materially) but is the one which is really "waning". I have been thinking a lot about the parallels between the fall of Numenor and the decline of Gondor recently. Marta wrote: As to what I like most about the Dúnedain? I'd probably have to say their selflessness. Though that's not entirely the right word. They consider more than their borders, or at least they're supposed to. They still care about Gondor, but if Gondor survived some great evil and the rest of the world perished, I honestly don't think a Dúnedain would consider that a victory. Marta, I had to laugh when I read that, since your favourite Dunadan (Denethor) is the one who least subscribes to that world view! Anyway, no time for more now but look forward to exchanging ideas with everyone here! Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

As anyone who has been anywhere near my fics will know, I have a small interest (*cough* obsession) with Faramir. I like exploring the contradictions of his character: he is in some ways extremely competent and self-confident, while being extremely self-effacing and modest. He also strikes me as one of the characters who most obviously wrestles with ethical issues when deciding what to do. When I first read the books (I'm only on my third read-through) I found Faramir a bit uninteresting. He didn't seem to struggle with things, and his character certainly didn't seem to evolve throughout the story Thanks to Liz's patient tutelage, however, I'm beginning to see Faramir as a very rich character. I'm currently rereading the books (I'm at the very end of Book III, in the middle of "The Palantir") looking for quotes for a hobbit research article I'm working on. Since I'm looking for specific quotes I'm reading more carefully than I ever did before and am finding loads of interesting stuff about the Rohirrim. I expect similar results when I finally get to Gondor and the Dunedain, and I'm thoroughly looking forward to it. I also find Denethor fascinating (and not just because of his relationship with Faramir but his relationships with everyone.). And I'm really learming to appreciate Aragorn, thanks to beta-ing fics for some HASA writers who write him extremely well. I agree with you on Denethor. He has fascinating relationships with others, but also with himself. He's such a complicated character that the different aspects of his personality have to relate to each other . And I don't mean in a Smeagol/Gollum-type way. Think, for example, how his relationship with, say, Boromir interrelates with his relationship to Gondor as a whole, or to Imrahil, or to his dead wife. Those are all relationships with external things. But underneath that, there's his personal side relating to his public side. It's a lot to wrap your head around. As to what I like most about the Dúnedain? I'd probably have to say their selflessness. Though that's not entirely the right word. They consider more than their borders, or at least they're supposed to. They still care about Gondor, but if Gondor survived some great evil and the rest of the world perished, I honestly don't think a Dúnedain would consider that a victory. Marta, I had to laugh when I read that, since your favourite Dunadan (Denethor) is the one who least subscribes to that world view! I can see how you'd laugh at that, and I did when I wrote it, actually. But what I find intriguing in Denethor -- his complexity, among other things -- is completely different that what I admire in the other Dunedain. I admire Denethor for other reasons (his strength of character and resiliency at resisting Sauron for so long, for example) but that's a different reason than why I admire the Dunedain as a whole. But yeah, it is sort of funny.

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

Welcome, Arquen! I don't have a specific Dunedan that I like, but like Nic I prefer the Northern Dunedain to the Southern. I'm not completely sure why, but they just fascinate me. Especially the line of Kings and their struggle with the Witch-king. Wunderbar. It's really good to get a variety of Northern and Southern fanciers.No one here's expected to be experts (I know I'm certainly not, but it is good to have people whose interests are spread out. Are Numenoreans also considered Dunedain? If so, I'm fascinated with them too. I think so. At any rate, I'm interested in them, as they're part of Gondor's and Arnor's cultural heritage. I'm open to discussing them here as well. As a matter of fact I think I mentioned Numenor in one of my starter threads... I'm not quite sure what draws me so much to the Dunedain in particular, but I think a lot has to do with how they started out in Numenor and were all noble and such. For me, the early Dunedain are like the ideal humans, if that makes any sense at all. Perfect sense. And I feel the same way. But I'd also point out that the Dunedain also had their faults. Just look at Isildur. Cheers, Marta

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

Voluntarily laying down your life 'of free will, and even of desire, in estel', (faith and hope) is completely different in spirit from what Denethor tries to do. Aragorn when his chosen hour comes simply closes his eyes and 'falls into sleep' while Denethor must destroy his body by physical means. Aragorn is looking forward to what he will find beyond the Circles of the World, though he doesn't know what it will be. Denethor acts out of despair and rage at the world with no thought of what would come after. I believe the grace of a voluntary surrender of life was possible for any Dunedain, not just the Royal House, and possibly other Men as well since it is a matter of achieving the proper spirit. In fact, as Beor is said to have 'died of free will', one may question whether it is a Gift of the Valar at all. Perhaps it is an aspect of the Gift of Eru. Numenoreans *are* Dunedain, at least so I've always thought. They are at least the direct ancestors of the Dunedain of Middle Earth.

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

Cheryl here! Great idea for this list! As I've developed my knowledge and understanding of LOTR, I've also found myself very interested in the Dunedain, especially those of the North. I admire the Northern Dunedain because for everything they've been through, they've managed not only to survive, but to preserve the unbroken line of decent all the way to Aragorn. They know who they are, and are still in so many ways like their Numenorian ancestors. Of course, this doesn't mean that I don't have interest in the Men of the South...

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

Voluntarily laying down your life 'of free will, and even of desire, in estel', (faith and hope) is completely different in spirit from what Denethor tries to do. Liz and I were talking about this on IM earlier, actually. I agree with you now. Denethor's need to commit suicide as opposed to just giving back to the gift was a commentary on him, not on all non-royal Numenoreans. I'll leave it to her to summarise her poin, if she feels like it when the sun graces her side of the pond in a few hours. Aragorn when his chosen hour comes simply closes his eyes and 'falls into sleep' while Denethor must destroy his body by physical means. Aragorn is looking forward to what he will find beyond the Circles of the World, though he doesn't know what it will be. Denethor acts out of despair and rage at the world with no thought of what would come after. You know, you're right here. I suppose we could argue over whether Denethor's despair and rage were his fault or not, but in the end it doesn't really matter. No matter whose fault (Denethor's, Sauron's, whomever), the fact of the matter id Denethor was not at peace like Aragorn was at the end of his life. So he couldn't give back the gift. That makes sense. This whole line of thought actually reminds me of an idea I was working with in my poem "Water and Flame": whether humanity would be allowed to evolve to its natural conclusion, as in the case of Numenor where men became so wicked they destroyed themselves; or whether they would be destroyed by some external foe before they were allowed to reach this point of destroying themselves. So thanks for bringing it up. It's fun to consider. I believe the grace of a voluntary surrender of life was possible for any Dunedain, not just the Royal House, and possibly other Men as well since it is a matter of achieving the proper spirit. In fact, as Beor is said to have 'died of free will', one may question whether it is a Gift of the Valar at all. Perhaps it is an aspect of the Gift of Eru. Quite possibly. I've read the Silm only once, and I really need to go back and reread certain parts. Pre-TA lore is really beyond my depth. But what you say makes sense. Numenoreans *are* Dunedain, at least so I've always thought. They are at least the direct ancestors of the Dunedain of Middle Earth. I suppose we could argue semantics. I don't think Numenoreans would have referred to themselves as Dunedain because of what the name meant. "Men of the West." Well, West of what? The natural answer, at least for me is "West of where I am." So it seems like a name someone from east of Numenor would impose on the Numenoreans. For example, I can see an Easterling calling a Numenorean sailor a dunadan. I can even see an Exile in Middle-earth calling himself a dunadan, i.e, he had come from west of where he currently lived. But these are semantics, like I said. I think the two are really closely related, and it's hard (if not impossible) to understand the Dunedain without the Numenoreans. For the purposes of this forum, it's completely kosher to talk about them. Cheers, a rather sleepy Marta

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

Welcome, Cheryl. Glad to see you drop in. As I've developed my knowledge and understanding of LOTR, I've also found myself very interested in the Dunedain, especially those of the North. I admire the Northern Dunedain because for everything they've been through, they've managed not only to survive, but to preserve the unbroken line of decent all the way to Aragorn. They know who they are, and are still in so many ways like their Numenorian ancestors. You're absolutely right there. You know, reading all these posts about the Northern Dunedain has given me a new respect for them. Thanks. Of course, this doesn't mean that I don't have interest in the Men of the South... Of course. They're both cool. So, Cheryl, if you have anything specific you want to discuss/ask, feel free to do so. I'm looking forward to more discussion. And now to bed, and now to bed... Cheers, Marta

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

So great to see you all around! I really don't have many interesting things to say today, but I'm just glad to see you all: Morwen, Arquen, Liz, Nic, Marta and Cheryl (long time no see, my dear! So glad to have you back) Well, I'll say a couple of things, after all Tanaqui wrote: As anyone who has been anywhere near my fics will know, I have a small interest (*cough* obsession) with Faramir. I know just what you mean... It's an ongoing malady for me, too. I liked how you described him as "wrestling with ethical issues." Though we know they all did, Faramir's issues shed so much more light on him, or perhaps are more obvious, I don't know, because of what he and the people of Gondor had to face. I love that. And, may I interest you in a Faramir round-robin? It's a cycle we had, where each of us took a constellation and wrote a story where Faramir learned that particular constellation from Adrahil. It all came out of a story for the quickies Stargazers where Faramir learns about Earendil, and we all took it from there. It was a lot of fun, and the cycle's not over yet. Would you like to take a look? *Starlight, trying to sic nuzguls on Liz again* Here: Learning the Constellations-The Starlight Challenge Morwen Tindormerel wrote: The contrast between the Dunedain of North and South is even more interesting. The one having lost all material advantages yet retained the hardihood and longevity that were the gifts of the Valar; and the other who've held on to a frayed remnant of their glory yet perhaps lost something of their soul. Certainly they've lost most of their special gifts. Tanaqui wrote: I love that contrast: Gondor is apparently more successful (materially) but is the one which is really "waning". I have been thinking a lot about the parallels between the fall of Numenor and the decline of Gondor recently. I've been thinking about that contrast since you brought it up on list. Tolkien seemed to think there was something important there, or so I see it, but I have not yet found out exactly what. Thanks for bringing that up-it's been so thought-provoking. I really have to go now, but it's been great to see you all. Have a great day! Starlight P.S. Marta, about that challenge... hm... I'm still giving it thought. We could do a resource challenge where we compile all the quotes about the northern and southern dunedain and organize them in a neat document. There's also a couple of nuzguls at the hutch about the Dunedain, particularly the northern (Grey Company Nuzgul, Mercenaries). We could do a sort of round-robin for this to, sort of a shortened tale of years where we drabble, or maybe a quickies style, the main points/parts of dunedain chronology? Oh... now you all know I'm obsessed...

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

adding to the debate from Morwen and Marta on "giving back the gift" and Denethor's actions: Marta is being overflattering saying I was making a "point" when we were IMing, since I was very tired and not very coherent. I think Marta wondered why Denethor had to kill himself through fire rather than "give back the Gift" (which is a Gift of Eru not the Valar - it's somewhere in the Silm; the Valar can merely manipulate it in the case of half-Elven where Eru allows them to). I suggested that to "Give back the Gift", a Numenorean would have to be "at peace", with a sense that they had lived a full and good life, had reached their allotted timespan, and did not wish to "cling on" to life (a fault among the Kings of Numenor and Gondor) but were prepared to renounce it while still in full possession of their faculties, before they became decrepit and senile. Denethor most definitely does not qualify for any of that at the end and I think would therefore be incapable of willing his death at that point. FWIW, I am of the opinion Tolkien did intend Faramir (described as someone in whom the blood of Numenor runs nearly true) to be seen as having given back the gift, since he gives him such a neat and tidy age at death (120) and emphasises his "true Numenorean" nature. Which leads me on to (see, told you I was obsessed with Faramir ): Starlight wrote:I liked how you described him as "wrestling with ethical issues." Though we know they all did, Faramir's issues shed so much more light on him, or perhaps are more obvious, I don't know, because of what he and the people of Gondor had to face. And, may I interest you in a Faramir round-robin? [snipping]. Learning the Constellations-The Starlight Challenge. Actually, I was aware of the challenge - although I hadn'rt felt the desire to write anything yet! - and made a rather HASA in-joke reference to it by calling the high-class brothel in my fic for the Behind Closed Doors challenge "The House of Starlight" *blushes* May I SSP the fic Chance Meetings here, since it is very little about brothels but a heck of a lot about Denethor and Faramir's different ethical standpoints and Faramir wrestling with ethical issues. Cheers, Liz (who must go, because RL calls )

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

Don't worry about the obsession! While we were at the verse and adversity, powzie, Flick and Chris started an ode, and we Faramir's obsessed fans had little cameos. I remember Acacea was made a chicken, just so she could be with him. So, you can see where this obsession has led us... Liz wrote: Actually, I was aware of the challenge - although I hadn'rt felt the desire to write anything yet! - and made a rather HASA in-joke reference to it by calling the high-class brothel in my fic for the Behind Closed Doors challenge "The House of Starlight" *blushes* Oh, I noticed that! I had read the beginning of your story and saw that, and I wondered if that's what you meant Thanks for SSPing, btw. I'll go check that out for reading at once. I can't tell you how much I've been thinking about that stuff since that HA discussion. I'll go read and then comment at the appropriate thread, but thank you so much! Good luck with RL Starlight

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

As I've developed my knowledge and understanding of LOTR, I've also found myself very interested in the Dunedain, especially those of the North. I admire the Northern Dunedain because for everything they've been through, they've managed not only to survive, but to preserve the unbroken line of decent all the way to Aragorn. Hi! I'm going to join you, Cheryl. I can see we need more Northern Dunedain obsessed persons on this forum! We can't let the House of Hurin fanatics steal all the discussions! I'm Gwynnyd. I'm slowly corrupting Liz to appreciate Aragorn. The Northern Dunedain backstory makes me crazy. I want so much to make sense of it. Some things the Professor said are so unlikely, I spend far too much time worrying alternatives.

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

Hi Gwynnyd and welcome! I'm going to join you, Cheryl. I can see we need more Northern Dunedain obsessed persons on this forum! We can't let the House of Hurin fanatics steal all the discussions! Absolutely - we definitely want this discussion to be about all the Dunedain! I'm Gwynnyd. I'm slowly corrupting Liz to appreciate Aragorn. You are indeed Between you, beta-ing for someone else who writes Aragorn-in-his-Estel-phase, and whatever voodoo Dwim has been casting at me since she said she would convert me to the cult of Aragorn Adorers, I am very much starting to appreciate Aragorn. (Which is just as well, since he keeps turning up invited in my fics.) The Northern Dunedain backstory makes me crazy. I want so much to make sense of it. Some things the Professor said are so unlikely, I spend far too much time worrying alternatives. And you know, Gwynnyd, we would just love to be able to capture some of those great thoughts and speculations in a research article or two... I think Marta and I need to tackle you off-list about that! Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

Hi Gwynnyd! The Northern Dunedain backstory makes me crazy. I want so much to make sense of it. Some things the Professor said are so unlikely, I spend far too much time worrying alternatives. Oh, I'd love to hear what it is that you like most about that part of the history. For me, it is just that so many things were left unsaid! What timeframe do you spend most time in? Liz wrote: And you know, Gwynnyd, we would just love to be able to capture some of those great thoughts and speculations in a research article or two... I think Marta and I need to tackle you off-list about that! Please, do! If it's as useful as that Gondorian Military Organization article, I know it will be just wonderful. Take care, Starlight

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

Hi, Makamu here. I have been a fan of the Dúnedain (North and South) since I was nine and I became a rabid fanatic three years ago with the first film (all I am saying for both cases is this: "Bree" ;) ) And since then I am on a spiral: Faramir holds the second place, Boromir the third, Imrahil the fourth (thanks again, Isabeau) and Denethor slowly starts to step into my field of interest as well. What I find fascinating is the way Tolkien left so many holes and blank spaces with the Arnorien Dúnedain , while covering the Gondorians in detail. Good for us fanfic writers ;) Anyway, I hope I will have an interesting time discussing my favourite people with fellow addicts Makamu

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

Hi! I'm going to join you, Cheryl. I can see we need more Northern Dunedain obsessed persons on this forum! We can't let the House of Hurin fanatics steal all the discussions! Welcome, Gwynnyd. Agreed -- House of Hurin is so fascinating and utterly admirable that it could very easily steal all the discussions. We must fight against that. I'm Gwynnyd. I'm slowly corrupting Liz to appreciate Aragorn. Don't let Gwynnyd fool you. She has not only been slowly corrupting Liz, but myself as well. And "slowly" is up to debate. At any rate, thanks for stopping in. Cheers, Marta

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

What I find fascinating is the way Tolkien left so many holes and blank spaces with the Arnorien Dúnedain , while covering the Gondorians in detail. I know just what you mean, Makamu. I realize that the war deals directly with Gondor, therefore that had to be more deeply developed, but what exactly does a chieftain do? What do the dunedain of the angle live of? Do they trade, occassionally, and with whom? How did they decide the chieftain-try was the better choice for their people? There's so much room for speculation and gap-filling! And since then I am on a spiral: Faramir holds the second place, Boromir the third, Imrahil the fourth (thanks again, Isabeau) and Denethor slowly starts to step into my field of interest as well. I'm with you on all of that. And, I'm glad Denethor is getting there, as well. Cheers, Starlight

 

 

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I realize that the war deals directly with Gondor, therefore that had to be more deeply developed, but what exactly does a chieftain do? What do the dunedain of the angle live of? Do they trade, occassionally, and with whom? How did they decide the chieftain-try was the better choice for their people? There's so much room for speculation and gap-filling! I know a good case has been made for the majority of the Dunedain living in the Angle, but that can't be the only place they can be found. Are there no isolated settlements left around Annuminas? Fornost? Down along the Blue Mountains that had been part of Arthedain? Up near Angmar? How many Dunedain are there anyway? Are the 30 "that could be gathered in haste" a significant fraction of the whole, or just who was hanging around near Rivendell the day they got word to leave? Just where do they patrol anyway? Bree, the Shire, Sarn Ford, and...? If you go back to sources like the Domesday Book and take Norman Conquest numbers for the amount of land that can support a 'knight', you get about 100 people and one knight on roughly 2 1/2 square miles of land. If less than 4% of the land of old Arnor, a rough 600 mile square, is lived on, it could support 5,000 'knights' and about a half million people! That seems high, but if you have to have enough separate lineages that the kings don't always have to marry close cousins, you might need a lot. Even if you postulate 100,000 Dunedain, that's only 200 villages of 500 people. Or 500 villages of 200 people. That doesn't seen undoable in 360,000 square miles of land. Each of the 500 villages using about 5 - 6 square mile sof land for cultivation and pasturage would be rattling around in 720 square miles of land. of room for lots of wilderness. How many people actually escaped Numenor on those nine ships? How many people of Numenorian descent and the Faithful persuasion were already living on the mainland when the wave hit? Were the ships "Mayflower" sized and carried about 100 refugees? bigger? smaller? So many questions! so many nuzguls! Stop me before I speculate more! Gwynnyd

 

 

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And since then I am on a spiral: Faramir holds the second place, Boromir the third, Imrahil the fourth (thanks again, Isabeau) and Denethor slowly starts to step into my field of interest as well. You are quite welcome, Makamu. It is my mission in life to interest people in Imrahil. So my list is as follows, in order of preference: Imrahil, Faramir, Boromir, Aragorn. I took up a story challenge a while back for the Dunadan Project to write about Argeleb, (I think it was) and how he got killed. Which, incidentally was a situation which Heth's distant ancestor was involved in, having sold out to the Witch King. I really wanted to write it, but haven't a clue how to begin, as there is next to nothing about that era, so I'll be very interested in the discussions here.

 

 

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I've wondered how many Dunedain there were too, Gwynnyd. I'm totally with you on the appeal of the Northen ones as well. And of those people, how many were Rangers? It's a dangerous job so there would have to have been a quite few. Which leads to the question of how many weren't Rangers and what did they do? Was the ratio of Rangers to non-Rangers skewed to the extent that the women did some of the men's jobs? Or were they not quite as extinct as all that? This questioning thing really isn't good for the nuzguls, I have too many half-finished ones as it is! Nic (The corruption works both ways as well, there's nothing quite like people sucking you in with their Elrond or Aragorn fics, then reading their Faramir ones)

 

 

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but I'm just glad to see you all: Morwen, Arquen, Liz, Nic, Marta and Cheryl (long time no see, my dear! So glad to have you back) I'm glad to be back, RL has been rearing it's ugly head...again. Hi! I'm going to join you, Cheryl. I can see we need more Northern Dunedain obsessed persons on this forum! We can't let the House of Hurin fanatics steal all the discussions! LOL! Well, it's not as if the Southern Men haven't had their trials and hardships through the ages, but I just have a soft spot for the Northern Dunedain. I think (and I apologize for being a bit behind the discussion here) that everything that was mentioned earlier (ie: the selflesness etc) the valor and the committment to doing what needs to be done regardless of the danger or hardship, all while being relentlessly hunted because of who they are, makes them very admirable. (wow, that was a LONG sentence! ) The Northern Dunedain backstory makes me crazy. I want so much to make sense of it. Some things the Professor said are so unlikely, I spend far too much time worrying alternatives. Well, stop worrying about the alternatives, and start writing them. eyeing the circling nuzguls Seriously, I agree here..and furthermore, I wish there was MORE... How many Dunedain are there anyway? Are the 30 "that could be gathered in haste" a significant fraction of the whole, or just who was hanging around near Rivendell the day they got word to leave? Just where do they patrol anyway? Bree, the Shire, Sarn Ford, and...? Like I said...I wish there was MORE... The perception I always had was that there were very few left. I thought the "30 gathered in haste" was indeed a significant number of them. Even if the population was more than my perception of it, not all the men are going to be Rangers. Hmm...what do the non-Rangers do? Farmers, yes...what else? ducking from nuzguls And of those people, how many were Rangers?.......This questioning thing really isn't good for the nuzguls, I have too many half-finished ones as it is! Wow...great minds think alike. Uhh...I don't need the nuzguls either...I don't even have any of my other ones done yet., I really don't need any NEW ones!

 

 

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"The Northern Dunedain backstory makes me crazy. I want so much to make sense of it. Some things the Professor said are so unlikely, I spend far too much time worrying alternatives." I couldn't agree more, but we must remember it isn't the Professor who wrote that decidedly confused and brief account of the history of the Northern realm but a Gondorian historian who clearly wasn't much interested in Arnor. ;) Note the obvious exaggeration of the size of the fleet sent to Arvedui's aid, and how Aranarth and the Northern Dunedain are barely mentioned in the short account of the last Witch War, we're talking some pretty obvious spin here!

 

 

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Well, stop worrying about the alternatives, and start writing them. Hmm...I was just reading back through the posts and realized that particular comment by me kind of came across as short and/or rude. Just FYI, it wasn't intended that way. It was supposed to be lighthearted and teasing. Guess I should've added an emoticon, huh? Anyway, just wanted to clarify if anyone misconstrued the intent. Cheryl

 

 

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Jeannie here, big fan of the Northern Dunedain as well. I think I've always liked them *because* of the lack of backstory...so much possibility there...and yes, I am aware that translates to many nuzguls. (away, ye beasties!) Morwen wrote: it isn't the Professor who wrote that decidedly confused and brief account of the history of the Northern realm but a Gondorian historian who clearly wasn't much interested in Arnor. As a historian by training, all I can say is -- Oh, SO true. His Ph.D. committee probably said he had to include Arnor to meet some departmental breadth requirement, so he put a bunch of books on his reading list, grumbling the whole time, and in time-honoured grad student fashion read only the first and last chapter of each so he could dash off a quick section on those obscure Northern folks and get right back to his real area of specialization, the one that was going to get him that coveted court appointment to the Royal Archives...

 

 

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Hi and welcome to Jeannie and anyone else I haven't said hi to yet! Glad to see we're adding to the number of Northern Dunedain fans Morwen wrote: it isn't the Professor who wrote that decidedly confused and brief account of the history of the Northern realm but a Gondorian historian who clearly wasn't much interested in Arnor. Jeannie wrote: As a historian by training, all I can say is -- Oh, SO true.... So he could dash off a quick section on those obscure Northern folks and get right back to his real area of specialization, the one that was going to get him that coveted court appointment to the Royal Archives... So (just playing devil's advocate here ) when do you think appendix A was written and by whom? Since in the "Note on Shire Records" in the Prologue to LotR it says:
The original Red Book has not been preserved, but many copies were made, especially of the first volume, for the use of the descendants of the children of Master Samwise. The most important copy, however, has a different history. It was kept at Great Smials, but it was written in Condor, probably at the request of the great-grandson of Peregrin, and completed in S.R. 1592 (F.A. 172). Its southern scribe appended this note: Findegil, King's Writer, finished this work in IV 172. It is an exact copy in all details of the Thain's Book in Minas Tirith. That book was a copy, made at the request of King Elessar, of the Red Book of the Periannath, and was brought to him by the Thain Peregrin when he retired to Gondor in IV 64. The Thain's Book was thus the first copy made of the Red Book and contained much that was later omitted or lost. In Minas Tirith it received much annotation, and many corrections, especially of names, words, and quotations in the Elvish languages; and there was added to it an abbreviated version of those parts of The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen which lie outside the account of the War.
Do you think Appendix A was added to the original Red Book during Aragorn's lifetime - in which case, did the author just write down what Aragorn told him and not do any more research at all (apart from embellishing Gondor's role)? Or do you think it was written after Aragorn had died, by which point no-one in Gondor remembered much about the history of Arnor, - and they couldn't be bothered to ask the Northern Kingdom - so this was scraped together from what they did know? Would love to hear some views from the historians in the group! (While gently shoving nuzguls at anyone who will take them about the writing of Appendix A, or Peregrin bringing his copy of the Red Book to Aragorn, or Findegil making his copy to go back to Great Smials...) Cheers, Liz

 

 

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Do you think Appendix A was added to the original Red Book during Aragorn's lifetime - in which case, did the author just write down what Aragorn told him and not do any more research at all (apart from embellishing Gondor's role)? Or do you think it was written after Aragorn had died, by which point no-one in Gondor remembered much about the history of Arnor, - and they couldn't be bothered to ask the Northern Kingdom - so this was scraped together from what they did know? Would love to hear some views from the historians in the group! (While gently shoving nuzguls at anyone who will take them about the writing of Appendix A, or Peregrin bringing his copy of the Red Book to Aragorn, or Findegil making his copy to go back to Great Smials...) LA LA LA LA LA A LA - not listening - LA LA LA LA Darn you, Liz, You know I have enough nuzguls to fill a hard drive as it is! And waaay tooo many unfinished stories! LALALALALALALALA Gwynnyd

 

 

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LA LA LA LA LA A LA - not listening - LA LA LA LA Darn you, Liz, You know I have enough nuzguls to fill a hard drive as it is! And waaay tooo many unfinished stories! LALALALALALALALA Urk, sorry Gwynnyd - I was not trying to fling that nuzgul specifically in your direction Maybe someone else would like to take it off your hands..... Cheers, Liz

 

 

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Urk, sorry Gwynnyd - I was not trying to fling that nuzgul specifically in your direction Thanks. It's not actually got its fangs in my at the moment. I'm refusing to think about it. Although Pippin is... NO! LALALALALA Gwynnyd

 

 

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Do you think Appendix A was added to the original Red Book during Aragorn's lifetime - in which case, did the author just write down what Aragorn told him and not do any more research at all (apart from embellishing Gondor's role)? Or do you think it was written after Aragorn had died, by which point no-one in Gondor remembered much about the history of Arnor, - and they couldn't be bothered to ask the Northern Kingdom - so this was scraped together from what they did know? Appendix A was definitely written *after* Aragorn's death as the 'Tale of Aragorn and Arwen' is part of it and that wasn't written until both were safely out of the way and unable to contradict Barahir's romance. ;) It was clearly compiled by a Gondorian scholar from Gondorian sources which weren't much interested in the North Kingdom.

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

Do you think Appendix A was added to the original Red Book during Aragorn's lifetime - in which case, did the author just write down what Aragorn told him and not do any more research at all (apart from embellishing Gondor's role)? Or do you think it was written after Aragorn had died, by which point no-one in Gondor remembered much about the history of Arnor, - and they couldn't be bothered to ask the Northern Kingdom - so this was scraped together from what they did know? After looking at the Notes, I think that the Appendices, including Appendix A, was started by Frodo, and perhaps written mostly by him, with things added through the years. I think it was edited by a Gondorian scholar after Aragorn's death, thus the embellishment of Gondor's history. I think that if Aragorn had been involved with the writing of Appendix A, there would have been a more detailed history of the North, since no doubt he had been very educated in Rivendell of Arnor's saga. Especially because he was descended from that line. Of course this all is making me want to delve even deeper into the history of the North more than ever, when I still have a lot of work to do with my current story. A curse on you, Liz, and your little nuzguls too! (JK!) Arquen

 

 

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Pervy Northern Dúnedain Fancier, here. Aragorn in particular would be my interest, with Halbarad a close second, and then Gilraen and Arathorn. Like Morwen, I like the North because there's a lot of space to play and to wonder about the sense of cultural cohesion that seems to be in place in the North, despite the relatively dire straits of the Dúnedain remnant. Isildur's legacy I see as playing out in the north in a way that it doesn't in the south. That said, of course, Gondor has lots of room for dynastic conflicts, moral ambiguity, etc., that is highly attractive. One of these days, however, I'd like to write about two thoroughly common and relatively apolitical southern Dúnedain--Beregond and Bergil. Gotta love 'em! You are indeed Between you, beta-ing for someone else who writes Aragorn-in-his-Estel-phase, and whatever voodoo Dwim has been casting at me since she said she would convert me to the cult of Aragorn Adorers, I am very much starting to appreciate Aragorn. (Which is just as well, since he keeps turning up invited in my fics.) I'm so glad that that pint of blood to the witch-doctor didn't go unrewarded, Liz...

 

 

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Been in love with Aragorn since like third grade, but I like Dunedain in general. Even more since I've begun studying pre-LOTR ME history in general and can see what they have been through. It is quite amazing that this group has been able to maintain a culture and maintain the line of Isildur as long as they have and through civil wars, wars with Angmar, etc. I've also been fascinated with Denethor since forever.

 

 

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Welcome to everyone who's new here since I last said that s Arquen wrote: Of course this all is making me want to delve even deeper into the history of the North more than ever, when I still have a lot of work to do with my current story. A curse on you, Liz, and your little nuzguls too! (JK!) Sorry, I didn't realise that nuzgul had such sharp teeth! (Please ignore all the evil cackling coming from my direction ). Dwim wrote: I'm so glad that that pint of blood to the witch-doctor didn't go unrewarded, Liz... Oh you definitely got your money's worth Aragorn managed to hijack a whole scene from Faramir a couple of fics back. And the scene I'm writing right now, which was mostly supposed about something else entirely, has descended into Denethor being in a mood about Thorongil... "Shoo!" *Liz waves ineffectually at Aragorn* Gypsum wrote: It is quite amazing that this group has been able to maintain a culture and maintain the line of Isildur as long as they have and through civil wars, wars with Angmar I guess I like writing about the Gondorians at the end of the TA precisely because they have that corrupted, political, decadant and decaying vibe, whereas the Northern Dunedain do (admirably) seem to have come through their troubles to reach a much more unified and uncorrupted political climate. I suppose if I could get into all the squabbles between Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur, I might find the Northern Dunedain more interesting Cheers, Liz

 

 

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Pervy Northern Dúnedain Fancier, here. Hee! Yup, card-carrying member of the Cult of Aragorn-Adorers over here as well. Although I wish more people would get past portraying him as some improbably perfect kingly figure and write him as a three-dimensional character with interesting flaws and vulnerabilities. So, Dwim, how's Dynasty coming these days...?

 

 

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Although I wish more people would get past portraying him as some improbably perfect kingly figure and write him as a three-dimensional character with interesting flaws and vulnerabilities. Haha. Working on it.

 

 

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Indeed. Me too. I am enjoying "Boundaries of Time," incidentally - although I have to go and have a rest after every chapter...you are portraying the sheer brutal slogging nature of travelling on foot through unforgiving landscapes (while chivvying a reluctant Gollum, no less) so well that I get tired just reading about it.

 

 

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In the spirit of Marta's "Gentle Reminder" I realize I should clarify that the comment I made above about wishing people would write Aragorn as a 3-dimensional character was NOT intended as a slight against anyone in this forum or elsewhere. I really like reading fics about Aragorn the perfect kingly figure...and one could even argue that those fics are truer to canon, because he certainly comes across that way in LOTR! I just *also* like it when people have different interpretations of him - and, indeed, of any of the characters. That's the amazing and wonderful thing about fanfiction, that it gives one new windows on familiar characters and situations...that as Marta says, there are as many interpretations as there are writers. It has been my experience as a reader so far that the "perfect kingly" Aragorns exceed the other kinds - so my comment was truly only a wish to see more of the latter, and definitely not meant as any insult to the former. I can see how it could have been taken that way though, now that I look at it in light of Marta's post, so if it was, I apologize! ---Jeannie, who sincerely hopes she has not offended anyone

 

 

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In the spirit of Marta's "Gentle Reminder" I realize I should clarify that the comment I made above about wishing people would write Aragorn as a 3-dimensional character was NOT intended as a slight against anyone in this forum or elsewhere. I really like reading fics about Aragorn the perfect kingly figure...and one could even argue that those fics are truer to canon, because he certainly comes across that way in LOTR! I just *also* like it when people have different interpretations of him - and, indeed, of any of the characters. Jeannie, Thanks for clarifying. When I made that "Gentle Reminder" post I certainly didn't have you or your post in mind. It just occurred to me that this forum is quite active. What is it, 60 or 70 posts so far? That's not a bad start at all. I just wanted to make sure we all remember that. I know, with the characters I love so much (*cough* Denethor *cough*) I often get so involved in my own interpretation that, when someone offers a contrary opinion, I have to step back and make a conscious effort to look at it objectively. Much of the time, I agree with the point, or can at least see how someone else would read the quote that way; sometimes I can't and usually argue, from the quote, for why I think the interpretation is wrong. But the point is, I try to at least consider the other POV. If I didn't, then I would never grow in my interpretation, and I'd miss out on a lot of interesting discussions, because they'd never get started. I thought that other people might have the same tendency where their favourite character was involved. But my post was very much in the spirit of "An inch of prevention is worth a pound of care," or in Middle-earth terms, "It is over-late to send for aid when you are already besieged." (Beregond, "Minas Tirith," Bk V, RotK). I wasn't really addressing a specific problem so much as trying to keep the list from developing one, if that makes any sense. And for the record, I also much prefer Strider's dry humour and down-to-earth-ness to Aragorn's or even (*shudders*) Elessar's more kingly qualities. Cheers, Marta

 

 

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Yup, card-carrying member of the Cult of Aragorn-Adorers over here as well OOH! How do I join?! just wanted to make sure we all remember that. I know, with the characters I love so much (*cough* Denethor *cough*) I often get so involved in my own interpretation that, when someone offers a contrary opinion, I have to step back and make a conscious effort to look at it objectively. (*cough, Aragorn *cough* *cough*) I hear ya there! It's a hard thing to do sometimes. One thing this site and the corresponding list have, is LOTS of opinions! It's great though, because I've found by stepping back and seeing another's POV of a character/issue, it furthers my undestanding. Oh boy! What a wealth of understanding and knowledge I've gained here too!! Cheryl

 

 

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Marta, I wasn't really addressing a specific problem so much as trying to keep the list from developing one, if that makes any sense. It makes all kinds of sense, and I think you are right to raise the issue before problems arise. I am relieved that my post did not constitute such a problem in your mind, and hope it didn't in anyone else's mind either! And for the record, I also much prefer Strider's dry humour and down-to-earth-ness to Aragorn's or even (*shudders*) Elessar's more kingly qualities. I hear ya. May I put in an SSP for my Black Breath challenge fic, Strange Meeting, in which I attempt to portray him both as kingly AND as possessed of that dry down-to-earth humour...? "Attempt" being the important word there. The jury is still out on whether or not it actually worked... Now I'll stop hijacking the thread (sorry!) so we can go back to discussing the much more fascinating Northern and Southern Dunedain...

 

 

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Now I'll stop hijacking the thread (sorry!) so we can go back to discussing the much more fascinating Northern and Southern Dunedain... Not hijacking at all, although a quick reminder that we do have a specific thread, SSPing the Dunedain Way for people to SSP their stories. Going and reading all the other stories in the Black Breath challenge (as it was my challenge idea) is one of the many things on my list of things to do when I have time. And I really do owe you that, as I seem to remember strong arming you into finishing that particular fic! ( I've also just realised I still haven't read your "Interlude" either, although I have it bookmarked - bad Liz, no biscuit!) Cheers, Liz

 

 

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And for the record, I also much prefer Strider's dry humour and down-to-earth-ness to Aragorn's or even (*shudders*) Elessar's more kingly qualities. I enjoy both, for the transformation in the books (and even the movies did a terrific job of it) from one to the other contributed to my falling in love with the character. Also, I do not think he all of a sudden started lacking those qualitie when he became King. People for the most part do not change that drastically. Obviously he would have had to behave more nobly -- act more like a King instead of a Ranger -- but I am sure he could be dry and down to earth when he wanted to be.

 

 

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Obviously he would have had to behave more nobly -- act more like a King instead of a Ranger -- but I am sure he could be dry and down to earth when he wanted to be. I feel similarly to Marta, which is why I very much love the reappearance of the more Strider-like qualities in "The Houses of Healing" - after I've found Aragorn fairly tedious for the best part of two books while he's asserting himself and being all status conscious. I can see why he has to be like that, but he doesn't particularly interest me or appeal to me at those points. Cheers, Liz

 

 

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after I've found Aragorn fairly tedious for the best part of two books while he's asserting himself and being all status conscious. I can see why he has to be like that, but he doesn't particularly interest me or appeal to me at those points. Which is why it's a golden opportunity to write fics during that time period that show him slipping out of that mask. Admittedly, it's not a period I've written much in, unless you count the AU scenes in LDID—the lure of his pre-Fellowship past is just slightly too strong for me to resist, assuming I have any resistance at all (a debatable point). [question: why are we stuck in bold font?]

 

 

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Which is why it's a golden opportunity to write fics during that time period that show him slipping out of that mask. And you know, since you understand Aragorn so well, I would love to see you write a less-pompous Aragorn-in-Rohan piece, showing that he doesn't lose the qualities I like so much in him during that period. Cheers, Liz [question: why are we stuck in bold font?] We are?

 

 

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Hi, everyone, I'm another Northern Dúnedain lover who just found this forum. Of course, I also love the Southern Dúnedain, but I belong to the group who finds the lack of backstory for the Northerners for so many years very enticing. (Why am I courting the nuzgûl? This is foolishness!) "And for the record, I also much prefer Strider's dry humor and down-to-earth-ness to Aragorn's or even (*shudders*) Elessar's more kingly qualities." Too true! I've been hopelessly in love with Strider since I first met him in Bree (what a great entrance - and I'm so glad they did it justice in the movies!), but I wouldn't be Arwen for love or money. Married to the King of Gondor and Arnor - *shudders*. Nope, I'll stick with my mysterious yet dryly humorous Ranger, rather than any politics-bound, status-conscious King. Since he's out of the way, my thoughts turn to Faramir ... (Yes, the resemblance to Eowyn has been noted by many, thank-you-very-much. I have a rebuttal to that, but this isn't the place for it.) My favorite Dúnedain characters to explore from the book are Aragorn, Faramir, and Denethor, but I love writing about Northern Ranger OCs - you know, the kind whose names and death dates are listed in the Appendix, and that's it. Also, their wives, sisters, and younger brothers fascinate me, although I live in horror of turning a woman of the Dúnedain into a Mary-Sue. *shudders at the thought* What attracts me to them is the lack of backstory, beyond a few very enticing quotes, and the ability to make up what I want to in terms of culture and traditions in many cases. For the real characters, I love their complexity. There are so many layers to unravel, and so many different interpretations of their characters. Aragorn’s Strider qualities in Rohan... No, nuzgul, no! I don't have time for you at the moment! Anyway, now that I've introduced myself, I really should get back to writing something so the nuzgûl will leave me alone...

 

 

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And you know, since you understand Aragorn so well, I would love to see you write a less-pompous Aragorn-in-Rohan piece, showing that he doesn't lose the qualities I like so much in him during that period. If anything comes to mind in between the other fics and general stuff I'm writing, you'll certainly hear about it. Otherwise, I'm afraid you are stuck with my AU scenes in Rohan, which are only fun if you really like angst. A lot. I mean... a LOT. [question: why are we stuck in bold font?] We are? My browser shows the first several posts in normal script, and everything else in bold. [sigh] I have issues... I always find weird, idiosynchratic Dwim!bugs.

 

 

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Hi I'm Estelwyn (a relative newbie who's recently found herself writing short Aragorn fics). Just been reading through this thread, and there's some great discussion here. My fave Dunedan would have to be, uhhh, Aragorn - for two reasons 1) the intriguing contrasts in his character. He's rough and rugged and also wise; a fierce and bold fighter, but also a learned healer; stern and also compassionate; noble and kingly, but very down-to-earth, and so on... 2) *embarrased whisper* Viggo (dare I admit that here?) Anyway, I think I got interested in the Northern Dunedain primarily out of curiosity about where Aragorn comes from, what makes him tick, and about all those tantalising details Tolkien left untold or half-suggested. I've not tried to write about any of that yet, but have thoroughly enjoyed the stories I've read by some of you here. *rushes back to Stories section to read more* Oh, before I go, a Faramir question for Liz. You said: He is in some ways extremely competent and self-confident, while being extremely self-effacing and modest. He also strikes me as one of the characters who most obviously wrestles with ethical issues when deciding what to do. I like those qualities about Faramir too. And I also value really highly his sense of honour, his integrity. So, I'm curious, given what you like about him (in the books), what did you think of the portrayal of Faramir in the movie? Old news I know, and I'm possibly opening a can of worms that would be best left unopened. If that's the case, someone slam the lid back on quick! Estelwyn

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

Hi I'm Estelwyn (a relative newbie who's recently found herself writing short Aragorn fics). Did you say "short Aragorn fics"? Mmmm.... Good to have another Aragorn Adorer about. My fave Dunedan would have to be, uhhh, Aragorn - for two reasons 1) the intriguing contrasts in his character. He's rough and rugged and also wise; a fierce and bold fighter, but also a learned healer; stern and also compassionate; noble and kingly, but very down-to-earth, and so on... 2) *embarrased whisper* Viggo (dare I admit that here?) Hey, I admitted to actually drooling when Viggo showed up onscreen for the first time in FoTR... and smiling like an idiot almost every other time. So, I'm curious, given what you like about him (in the books), what did you think of the portrayal of Faramir in the movie? Old news I know, and I'm possibly opening a can of worms that would be best left unopened. If that's the case, someone slam the lid back on quick! There was some lively debate about this on the HA list after TTT came out. The major sticking point, iirc, was the "take the Ring to my father" line and the darker interpretation of him as an interrogator. However, someone found a most excellent analysis of his bookverse interactions with Frodo and Sam that did a bang-up convincing job of showing that if you were a smart interrogator, you'd do exactly what Faramir in the books did. I think that helped give people a handle for understanding the movieverse!Faramir interpretation better. Of course, we still have issues, but by and large, most of us who've posted have had a very positive experience with the films, despite our complaints (some of them fairly serious *coughDenethorcough*, and I had my issues with Aragorn-the-reluctant-hero as well).

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

Hi Estelwyn and welcome what did you think of the portrayal of Faramir in the movie? Old news I know, and I'm possibly opening a can of worms A can of worms indeed Yes, I can rant about this for hours, although possibly not on the grounds many people would - as Dwim has said, movie!Faramir can actually be interpreted as mostly consistent with book!Faramir in TTT at least. However, I'll try not to go on too long here - while still answering your question! - partly because it depresses me and I'd rather focus on the many things I loved about the films. The short answer is that my problem is with the entire portrayal of Gondor and Gondorians in TTT and RotK, not just the named characters. I'm actually more upset about Denethor than Faramir, and about the general protrayal of the Gondorians as incompetent (*cough* battle tactics *cough*). OTOH, I think David Wenham, John Noble and Sean Bean all did a superb job on the acting front and that David Wenham in particular put back a lot of book!Faramir in his performance in the teeth of a script that didn't seem to understand Faramir at all. There, I can be quite rational about these things Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

Welcome Estelwyn! Yay! Another Aragorn fancier! Don't worry about being starry eyed for Viggo, you're not alone there, dear! *drooling at the flashback of those marvelous intense eyes staring over his pipe in Bree...* He's a hottie as Aragorn *Stopping now before I come across as a hormone crazy teenager..* I also think he embodies the qualities of the Dunedain that I admire so much. Eventhough there were some deviations from the book, I rather liked movie Faramir, and thought that DW was a great Faramir and played the role very well. Just my .02 on it, YMMV Cheryl

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

Hi Estelwyn! Just wanted to let you know that you're not alone: I'm quite a fan of Viggo myself. The body, the face, the voice! Needless to say, he added to my enjoyment of the movies... Arquen

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

Hi I'm Estelwyn Hi, Estelwyn, and welcome to DoD. (a relative newbie who's recently found herself writing short Aragorn fics). What's that, Aragorn-as-hobbit? ;-) You'll find a lot of people here who like Aragorn fics, long or short. And speaking of Aragorn fics, have you checked out the "With One Voice" challenge? You might find it interesting. My fave Dunedan would have to be, uhhh, Aragorn - for two reasons 1) the intriguing contrasts in his character. He's rough and rugged and also wise; a fierce and bold fighter, but also a learned healer; stern and also compassionate; noble and kingly, but very down-to-earth, and so on... I agree with you on that appraisal. Aragorn is a rather interesting character, one who seems to muscle his way into fics of mine that are not about him. I would say similar things about the southern Dunedain, particularly Faramir (I see Denethor in much the same way, but we just don't see enough of him in canon for me to argue it as anything more than my interpretation). 2) *embarrased whisper* Viggo (dare I admit that here?) Dare. I think you'll find some others who feel the same way. And consider yourself lucky. As the resident Denethor fanatic I got John Noble. Now, I know Denethor's bowed from using the palantir so much and everything, but... you get Aragorn smoking a pipe in Bree. I get Denethor with tomato juice running down his chin. Oh, before I go, a Faramir question for Liz. You said: He is in some ways extremely competent and self-confident, while being extremely self-effacing and modest. He also strikes me as one of the characters who most obviously wrestles with ethical issues when deciding what to do. I like those qualities about Faramir too. And I also value really highly his sense of honour, his integrity. So, I'm curious, given what you like about him (in the books), what did you think of the portrayal of Faramir in the movie? Old news I know, and I'm possibly opening a can of worms that would be best left unopened. If that's the case, someone slam the lid back on quick! Don't worry about opening cans of worms; here's the place to do it. Through Liz's effort, I've begun to really appreciate Faramir more than I had previously, and so Faramir's portrayal in the movies now pains me more than it did originally. Still, and I hate to sound like a broken record: I maintain that Faramir did not suffer half the character assassination Denethor did. But I'm getting better. I no longer grind my teeth when Denethor does that lunge for the jugular with the "Gondor is mine!" line. I've just reconciled myself that there's some stranger masquerading under enethor's name. ;-) Marta

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

Estelwyn again. Thanks for the warm welcome y'all! I think I'm going to like this place Quick replies: Liz wrote my problem is with the entire portrayal of Gondor and Gondorians in TTT and RotK, not just the named characters. Yes, we certainly didn't have a same opportunity in the movies to get to know the Gondorrim and "care" about them that we had with the Rohirrim. As a people the people of Minas Tirith are rather faceless and aloof - mayeb anonymous is a better way to put it. It was a shame there weren't any of the intimate moments with "ordinary folk" at Minas Tirith, that we had at Edoras and Helm's Deep. I wonder how that must have been for folk who didn't know the books. I can imagine them thinking "so what?" when Minas Tirith is about to be over-run during the Battle of PF. Sad really...maybe the EE will help? Cheryl wrote Just my .02 on it, YMMV Pardon my newbie-ness, but what's YMMV? Marta wrote What's that, Aragorn-as-hobbit? ;-) Well, let me see.... I guess there's the pipe-weed thing to start with, and...umm he's rather partial to the odd pint of ale, but I don't think he has anything like a hobbit's relationship to food. I mean look at his attitude to second breakfast! *chuckle* Marta also wrote I maintain that Faramir did not suffer half the character assassination Denethor did. I agree that Aragorn got off pretty lightly in the character assasination stakes, compared to these two, but maybe it matters more to me, because I like him so much. However I still think Faramir got a pretty raw deal. Since he (F) is a very close second for my affections I must say I was much more upset by what they "did" to him, than Denethor (awful as I agree it was, grrr!). Recently though (and partly through discovering this site and getting reaquainted, or rather reobsessed I should say, with the book characters again) I have decided to adopt a new attitude to this whole book/movie camparison thing. It was put rather well by one of the regulars on the TORn boards (where I also hang out) who said IIRC "The only way PJ could spoil the books for me is if he was to come to my house with a marker pen!" *sincere apologies to dearest gramma for the probably innacurate paraphrase* What I take this to I mean is that, incredible though the movie are (and don't get me wrong, I love them!), PJ et all don't have the final word. The books, and the book characters, will always be there to come back to, thank goodness, and Tolkien's characters haven't changed no matter how wonderful or dreadful certain aspects of the movies may be. Whoa, that was a big tangent, sorry. End of rant! OK, where were we? Oh, yeah the Dunedain. There's another thing that's been bothering me lately. Here's a question (probably old) for you all: What happened to the northern Dunedain after Aragorn became King? Did they move , or stay put? Was there a new "chieftain" up north, or at least some leader who managed the kings "affairs" in the north when he was down in Gondor. Aaaagh! *ducks as nuzgul swoop overhead*

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

Cheryl wrote Just my .02 on it, YMMV Pardon my newbie-ness, but what's YMMV? Yikes!! Sorry! YMMV is "Your Mileage May Vary" Its kind of a short hand for "you may have a different opinion than me." What happened to the northern Dunedain after Aragorn became King? Did they move , or stay put? Was there a new "chieftain" up north, or at least some leader who managed the kings "affairs" in the north when he was down in Gondor. Aaaagh! *ducks as nuzgul swoop overhead* Whoa!! *also ducking as said nuzgul launches my direction* I"ve already ducked one other this evening on another thread. Sheesh, who would've thought reading the forums could be so dangerous to my limited spare time? For being a newbie you certainly have picked up the Nuzgul flinging skill very quickly! Cheryl *keeping close eye on the "Northern Dunedain post Ring War" nuzgul who has now joined the "What was Legolas doing during The Hobbit" nuzgul circling my head....*

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

Hi Estelwyn - glad you think you're going to like it here Estelwyn wrote: Sad really...maybe the EE will help? I'm sure in some ways it will (getting back all the stuff in the Houses of Healing should go a long way). On the other hand. even leaving aside Faramir's chaotic rather than ordered retreat from Osgiliath and the suicidal charge (which I can just about rationalise), I don't think the EE will do anything about the Gondorian's terrible battle tactics during the defence of Osgliath, the fact they seem so badly prepared that the ammunition for their ballistae from the outset appears to be rubble from their own city, or the fact their soldiers seem to stand around passively in the midst of high drama and then crumple if an Orc so much as touches them.... "The only way PJ could spoil the books for me is if he was to come to my house with a marker pen!" How very true! And I do love the films, I do. My grumpiness is just from my belief that if movie!Gondor had been as true to the books as movie!Rohan or movie!Shire, the final film would have gone from wonderful to truly outstanding for me. Anyway, I will shut up (I did promise not to rant) and sit back and admire your nuzgul - which could fit very nicely into the With One Voice? challenge that Marta has already mentioned. Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

hey ;) I'm quite new to Henneth Annûn and the HA mailinglist, but as an Aragorn-fan (I guess the nick gives it away ), I was adviced to come here and find fellow Dúnedain-likers here. I've been reading up on this discussion and find that many of the things said (the reasons for liking Aragorn, the way Viggo portrayed him, etc.) are exactly how I feel. I too am intrigued by the Rangers and the Dúnedain, but because there is so much space in doing whatever with them, I just go with the flow and use or write whatever I want to. I don't like a perfect Aragorn. I think that he is just as human as the rest of them and has flaws that make his character the more interesting. I also like it that there are many things left open for interpretation, and I like his relationship with Arwen (even though I can never quite understand why so many people disliked Liv Tyler's portrayal of her since I felt she struck a chord and gave Arwen a (believable) face.) The one thing I've always found a shame was the dismissal of the Palantir's use, and the Houses of Healing, in ROTK. But I'm having high hopes for the EE! When I write Aragorn, I want him to be human in comparison to the Elves where he grew up. I want him not flawless but with troubles, with difficulties and angst. I'm currently writing a story that will probably cause some issues because he's not a hero in it, but an anti-hero. Even though I feel that sometimes it's hard to write, it's believable. (I hope!). Well, that's it for now. ;) Cheers, Aragornwriter

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

OK, where were we? Oh, yeah the Dunedain. There's another thing that's been bothering me lately. Here's a question (probably old) for you all: What happened to the northern Dunedain after Aragorn became King? Did they move , or stay put? Was there a new "chieftain" up north, or at least some leader who managed the kings "affairs" in the north when he was down in Gondor. Aaaagh! *ducks as nuzgul swoop overhead I've got a decidedly non-canonical answer to that, briefly described in Return and soon to be explored in more detail in The King Comes Home. I also discuss who's running things in the North during Aragorn's absence in Rangers of the North and The King's Folk.

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

OK, where were we? Oh, yeah the Dunedain. There's another thing that's been bothering me lately. Here's a question (probably old) for you all: What happened to the northern Dunedain after Aragorn became King? Did they move , or stay put? Was there a new "chieftain" up north, or at least some leader who managed the kings "affairs" in the north when he was down in Gondor. Aaaagh! *ducks as nuzgul swoop overhead I've got a decidedly non-canonical answer to that, briefly described in Return and soon to be explored in more detail in The King Comes Home. I also discuss who's running things in the North during Aragorn's absence in Rangers of the North and The King's Folk.

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

When I write Aragorn, I want him to be human in comparison to the Elves where he grew up. I want him not flawless but with troubles, with difficulties and angst. I'm currently writing a story that will probably cause some issues because he's not a hero in it, but an anti-hero. Even though I feel that sometimes it's hard to write, it's believable. (I hope!). I wrestle with the same issues. I'm not sure I see Aragorn as an anti-hero at any point in his life (although I am more than willing to let you convince me in your fics that he could be!) but I do see him starting out as a kid and growing up as everyone must. I'm sure he was an obnoxious spoiled, although probably polite to his elders, brat at 13, a bit vainglorious as a young man and he only grew into real wisdom later. And, yeah, I want to write the whole thing eventually. My betas know how slowly I write, so it will probably be a long while. There is so much open back story in JRRT's works that it is hard not to fill in the blanks with our pet theories. And that's what makes it so much fun! There are lots of places to be creative and lots of room for different interpretations. Everyone's milage varies. And Viggo and Orli and Karl and David and Billy and Bernard ... well, you get the idea. As I keep telling my daughters, I am old, but I am not dead and I am just looking! Gwynnyd

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

I agree! I could write nothing but fanfic on Aragorn's backstory. The hints he gives at random moments in the trilogy are incredibly tantalizing and frustratingly vague. And NEVER written. So I have taken it upon myself to write various bits and pieces, a challenge due to the vagueness of the canon.

 

 

Re: Introducing... You!

Sigh. I was quite happy being an Eomer-fangirl. It was OK. I have 8 or 9 stories about him in progress, and it's going well. But he does not live in a vacuum. Somewhere along the way Imrahil grabbed onto my ankle and won't let go. Denethor kind of grabbed onto him and is trailing along somewhere... And, as of late last night when I should have been in bed, Thorongil's started gnawing on me. So... Hi, Dunedain-fanciers, I think I'm one of you now. TERRIFYING, isn't it? There is no escape. Auuuggghhhhh. So who wants to fill me in on their pet Thorongil theories?

 

 

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