Forum: Resources Discussions

Discussing: Announcements and Feedback Requests (current)

Announcements and Feedback Requests (current)

Hi folks This is a continuation of the previous thread, which was getting a little long and taking a while to load. I've renamed the other one "part 1". While I'm here: Woo-hoo to Loqi for entering our 900th event. I'd noticed some great stuff was going on with the Chieftains, but hadn't realised we'd hit another milestone. Excellent. Chocolate for everyone! They are a much easier way to celebrate than confettis. Oh yes. How about some cream cakes too? Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: date of Stoors migration

Edit: This is a reply to the discussion that starts in this post. How helpful of Tolkien to manage to have a conflict even in the published work.... Injecting a bit of "real world" into the discussion, my understanding is that these kinds of migrations rarely take place all at once. They usually happen over the course of a generation, as some people either suffer more or can't cope with the growing troubles as easily, and make the move quickly, while others are determined to "stick it out" on "their land" (and hobbits are very attached to their land, I think) despite reports of better conditions in the new lands. So in practical terms, I can see hobbits beginning to migrate away in 1356 when the trouble between Arthedain and Rhudaur starts making life difficult, but the last of them only fleeing in 1409 when Angmar attacks. This seems consistent with the c1400 date in the PoMe quote which suggests the exact date of departure is unclear and migration is staggered over several years. I agree with Barbara that you should stick with 1409 for the timeline, but perhaps include some edited quotes from App B and PoMe to indicate that 1409 may be the end of a process that has been taking place for several years. HTH Cheers, Liz

 

 

Those pesky stewards of Gondor....

This is a reply to the discussion that starts in this post. Ugh. I think I'll have to change the date to 1998, unless one of you can convince me that somehow LoTR and UT together don't trump HoME... But does UT trump HoMe? Neither were published in Tolkien's lifetime, so both are quasi-canon not actual canon. Do we have dates for the composition of the various quotes and know which are earlier or later? This is making it look more like the actual law was made in 1998, not 2050 -- which is truly unfortunate, because the HoME explanation makes so much more sense. *whines* Why make laws about the descent of the Stewards if they weren't the rulers? Hmm, possibly indulging in a bit of sophistry here but... I feel able to read the quote here in the same way as we were reading things previously. The quote implies the Stewards had the right to use the stone delegated to them long before Pelendur's day (which was why Pelendur was able to use it in communications with Arnor over Arvedui). We know that tanistry is established for some 400 years (from Hurin's time in 1636) before primogeniture takes over - and tanistry is a form of inheritance, just involving a wider group (one still needs to have the right ancestors). As I read this, any lawfully chosen steward prior to the end of the line of kings has a lawful right to use the stone - and most of those stewards were selected under tanistry rather than primogentiture. We previously decided the stewardship becomes de facto hereditary from Pelendur onwards and de jure from Mardil - and I think that's still what the UT quote could be taken to be saying: had become hereditary from 1998 onwards is subtly distinct from eg was made hereditary from 1998 onwards and to me implies de facto not de jure. Of course, I could be grasping at straws here.... HTH Cheers, Liz (PS I also saw your History of Gondor suggestions - many thanks! I will go through them in detail and make corrections soon.) (Edit: PPS: And no, I haven't touched the Stewards of Gondor entry yet.)

 

 

Re: Announcements and Feedback Requests (current)

Chocolate for everyone! They are a much easier way to celebrate than confettis. Oh yes. How about some cream cakes too? I'll contribute some cookies! Kudos to everyone! Geeks forever! Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Those pesky stewards of Gondor....

This is in reply to Barbara's History of Gondor suggestions. Third Age 2 -> PL: Isildur slain [I think that Isildur was considered by at least some to be King of Arnor and Gondor, so his death would be relevant -- especially to the later controversy over Arvedui] In fact, in the Disaster of the Gladden Fields section in the UT Isildur is said to have "assumed the Elendilmir as King of Arnor, and proclaimed his sovereign lordship over all the Dúnedain in the North and in the South", assuming his father's role. He is also called in the same passage, "second King of all the Dúnedain, lord of Arnor and Gondor, and in that age of the World the last." ~Loqi

 

 

History of Gondor entry

Hi Barbara and Loqi OK, please don't make me go near this entry again unless I absolutely have to. By the time I'd dealt with all of Barbara's excellent suggestions, I actually did bust the word limit for a database entry (and then had to work out how to unbreak things....) So I had to cut down some of the narrative parts a little and take out a few links. I really think there are only about 50 spare characters or something. So we can only remove things from this entry (maybe to put them somewhere else, but even so....) Anyway, thanks for the suggestions. As far as possible, I’ve either accepted them suggestions, they were superseded by other developments (ie the same link came earlier!) or I’ve made comments here. 3429 Orodruin burst once more into flame, and was named anew in Gondor Amon Amarth, Mount Doom. -> [um, do we need a "Mount Doom bursts into flame - Second Age" entry? ] Probably (*sigh*) – but do we have a definite date for this (it’s not actually in the ToY)? I think we could assume it’s probably 3429 if there’s no other evidence to the contrary. This really belongs in a Last Alliance Overview as much as the History of Gondor (although I could probably squeeze this into the History of Gondor if necessary). Third Age 2 -> PL: Isildur slain [I think that Isildur was considered by at least some to be King of Arnor and Gondor, so his death would be relevant -- especially to the later controversy over Arvedui] I added in the event and also a quote based on the ones Loqi provided, as part of the narrative – many thanks for those: they really are important! 2050 -> [see my post about maybe having to change "Stewardship becomes hereditary" to 1998 instead of 2050...] I still think this happens with Mardil, not Pelendur, as per my reply March 3019 15 -> and I'd add "Gandalf takes command of the defence" Actually, Gandalf does that on 14 March and it’s at the end of the previous day’s events. And I'm sure I've introduced a bunch of new errors with my editing..... *step away very carefully from the entry, trying not to breathe in case it disturbs it* Cheers, Liz

 

 

Parley with Saruman in Isengard and related entries

Hi Barbara I hope you don't mind me butting in. I was admiring all your entries relating to the Parley with Saruman in Isengard (and also admiring all Loqi's Arnor/Arthedain entries too ). I noticed that for a lot of the "aftermath" entries you have "after the Parley" in the title, and I wondered if this was strictly necessary. It makes the titles much longer, and I'm not sure most of the events where you've included it could be easily confused with any others. The only reasons I can see for including it is that there are clearly some issues with the order all these same-day events are appearing in the timeline. Anyway, I just thought I'd mention it. Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Those pesky stewards of Gondor....

Hi Liz!

Thanks for addressing this. I'm ... still wavering.

But does UT trump HoMe? Neither were published in Tolkien's lifetime, so both are quasi-canon not actual canon.

According to our list, UT does trump HoME.

Do we have dates for the composition of the various quotes and know which are earlier or later?

Well, this question sent me on a quest... I could be wrong, but it looks like the UT quote is slightly later than the HoME quote.

I'm going to sleep on this (again) and look at it again tomorrow. At this point, I'm slightly leaning to changing to the date to 1998...

- Barbara

And no, I haven't touched the Stewards of Gondor entry yet.

Okay, I'll add that perfect quote (why didn't I see that earlier?) and send you the updated text file.

 

 

Re: Those pesky stewards of Gondor....

This is in reply to Barbara's History of Gondor suggestions. Thank you, Loqi! I was too lazy to look up Isildur's status then... - Barbara

 

 

Re: History of Gondor entry

OK, please don't make me go near this entry again unless I absolutely have to. By the time I'd dealt with all of Barbara's excellent suggestions, I actually did bust the word limit for a database entry (and then had to work out how to unbreak things....) And you had to split this history out from the Gondorians entry because that one was getting too big? I am truly impressed... [um, do we need a "Mount Doom bursts into flame - Second Age" entry? ] Probably (*sigh*) – but do we have a definite date for this (it’s not actually in the ToY)? I think we could assume it’s probably 3429 if there’s no other evidence to the contrary. This really belongs in a Last Alliance Overview as much as the History of Gondor (although I could probably squeeze this into the History of Gondor if necessary). No, no, no! I take it back! It is of very minor importance to the History of Gondor entry. I was teasing (because you had the equivalent Third Age entry). Of course, if you wanted to add it to a Last Alliance overview, I certainly wouldn't object... Isildur slain I added in the event and also a quote based on the ones Loqi provided, as part of the narrative – many thanks for those: they really are important! Excellent! We shouldn't let those Gondorians get away with dissing their High King Isildur just because he died! (And thanks to Loqi, too.) -> and I'd add "Gandalf takes command of the defence" Actually, Gandalf does that on 14 March and it’s at the end of the previous day’s events. Oh, it was there already? Sorry! My memory cache was definitely overflowing by then... (and that also applies to suggested links that were already there...) And I'm sure I've introduced a bunch of new errors with my editing.... Just in a quick glance, it looks great! I'll read it more carefully soon, with special emphasis on any words or phrases that can be removed easily... 50 characters is not much cushion... *step away very carefully from the entry, trying not to breathe in case it disturbs it* LOL! I don't blame you! Take a bow, Liz! - Barbara

 

 

Re: Parley with Saruman in Isengard and related entries

Hi Liz! I hope you don't mind me butting in. Butt in all you want... Your feedback is always welcome! I noticed that for a lot of the "aftermath" entries you have "after the Parley" in the title, and I wondered if this was strictly necessary. It makes the titles much longer, and I'm not sure most of the events where you've included it could be easily confused with any others. The only reasons I can see for including it is that there are clearly some issues with the order all these same-day events are appearing in the timeline. I was really going back and forth on this. (Well, on the first one -- once I decided to do it, I stopped thinking about it -- it was getting late and I was sleepy ) That sequence on that single day is really confusing, even with the "after the Parley"s. So, I think I'll take your recommendation and remove most of them -- except the one on Gandalf and Théoden camp at Dol Baran after the Parley, since it sets up that whole Dol Baran sequence. - Barbara

 

 

Re: Those pesky stewards of Gondor....

According to our list, UT does trump HoME. Yes, but bits of HoMe can trump bits of UT in certain circumstances. *sigh* This is just so muddled and I think the argument can be made either way.... so I'm not much help here! Let me know what you decide and I'll amend the HoG accordingly. Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: History of Gondor entry

*bows* And you had to split this history out from the Gondorians entry because that one was getting too big? I am truly impressed... It's actually "only" about 7000 words counted in Word, but the links each add 65 characters, making the average word-length very long. And hey, what do you expect for 3000-odd years of history. I'll read it more carefully soon, with special emphasis on any words or phrases that can be removed easily... 50 characters is not much cushion... Thanks! Getting rid of any extraneous links would save a lot of characters! I was teasing (because you had the equivalent Third Age entry). Yes, but the Third Age event is "isolated" and kicks off some other events (people fleeing Ithilien ) whereas the Second Age event is just part of the general mayhem of the time.... Of course, if you wanted to add it to a Last Alliance overview, I certainly wouldn't object... Well, we do need a Last Alliance overview (I don't think we even have an event for poor Giil-galad's death), so it can go in there. But I seem to recall I have lots of Stewards and Kings to sort out before that. (Do you have a Kings of Gondor spreadsheet, btw?) We shouldn't let those Gondorians get away with dissing their High King Isildur just because he died! Nope - look at all the problems it caused them down the line! My memory cache was definitely overflowing by then... Mine too every time I look at this stuff now! Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Parley with Saruman in Isengard and related entries

That sequence on that single day is really confusing, even with the "after the Parley"s. So, I think I'll take your recommendation and remove most of them -- except the one on Gandalf and Théoden camp at Dol Baran after the Parley, since it sets up that whole Dol Baran sequence. Yes, it makes sense to leave it in that particular entry. Very, very nice work, btw. You'll have polished off significant chunks of the Ring War between this, SoMT, BoPF and ORaPG. I suppose someone ought to tackle that minor sidematter of whassisname going to Mount Doom some day.... Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: History of Gondor entry

Well, we do need a Last Alliance overview (I don't think we even have an event for poor Giil-galad's death), so it can go in there. Yes, poor Gil-galad... But I seem to recall I have lots of Stewards and Kings to sort out before that. (Do you have a Kings of Gondor spreadsheet, btw?) I do now! Your question prompted me to look around, and I did have a text file with the links for the King events that I had added. So... I re-created the KoG spreadsheet, and will send it to you (along with the updated Stewards one -- I think you'll like the change I made) this evening... - Barbara

 

 

Re: Parley with Saruman in Isengard and related entries

Very, very nice work, btw. You'll have polished off significant chunks of the Ring War between this, SoMT, BoPF and ORaPG. Thank you! *beams* And I'm making progress on the Invasion of Westfold overview -- it seems like I'm drowning in quotes and events... (then I keep adding more -- can't end the invasion without a parley, can we?) I suppose someone ought to tackle that minor sidematter of whassisname going to Mount Doom some day.... Were there Elves there, precioussss? Were there Rohirrim? - Barbara

 

 

Re: Parley with Saruman in Isengard and related entries

Hi Barbara Thanks for the spreadsheets. it seems like I'm drowning in quotes and events... You have my sympathies! Were there Elves there, precioussss? Were there Rohirrim? No, none of those, but there is a short interlude with a certain raven-haired Captain of Gondor.... Hmm, we need to attract a serious Hobbit geek, don't we? Cheers, Liz

 

 

Genealogical Entires of the Heirs of Isildur

There is now an entry for each of the three basic genealogical events for all the heirs of Isildur. Some of the older entries need to be revised, but I am very glad I'm almost finish with them. According to the date written on my first entry, I've been working on them for almost two years! Feedbacks are welcome. The entries for the Kings of Arnor, the deaths of the Kings of Arthedain, and the births of the Chieftains still need to be fixed, but the rest of the entries should be up to date. Also the births & deaths of Elendil, Isildur, and Anárion need to be revised. If anyone wants to take those up, please do, if not I can probably get to them eventually. My exams are coming in two weeks and will not end until the end of June.I'll be making myself to stay away from the internet as much as possible. Revisions will have to occur after June. ~Loqi

 

 

Re: Genealogical Entires of the Heirs of Isildur

Loqi, Thank you for doing these, and thank you for sending me the links. When I get the chance, I will create an Events spreadsheet for Isildur's heirs... - Barbara

 

 

Re: Genealogical Entires of the Heirs of Isildur

Woo-hoo, congratulations and well done, Loqi! This is a major milestone. Hope the exams go well! Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Genealogical Entires of the Heirs of Isildur

Barbara and Liz, Thank you! ~Loqi

 

 

Research article on Cooking for Rangers

Hi all As I haven't had any more feedback for a while, I've switched the "Cooking for Rangers" article from off-list to beta status, so the general membership can benefit from it. I've put a clone of the article in this workshop, so people can still make comments if they want. Lyllyn, I know you are very busy and with a backlog of stuff to do, but I would love to get your input (as a keen cook) on this article at some point. I'd also like to know when you're happy it's passed the necessary quality threshold to to be linked to one or more topics in the research articles area of Resources. Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: Research article on Cooking for Rangers

Hi All

I've made some revisions to the Cooking for Rangers article following some excellent feedback from Lyllyn.

I've put the article back into beta status, and put an original copy here in the workshop. I'd very much appreciate it if anyone has the time to check it over again for me and let me have any "final" comments and corrections.

Lyllyn, I'd also appreciate knowing of you're happy that the aritcle has passed the necessary quality threshold to to be linked to one or more topics in the research articles area of Resources. (I can do the links; I just want to make sure you're happy for me to link before I do so!)

Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: History of Gondor entry

With some updates resulting from Barbara's last bit of offlist feedback and adding in an event I realised I'd forgotten, I think this entry is finally, finally finished....

Many thanks to Barbara in particular for all her help. Also thanks to Lyllyn, Loqi and anyone else who has given me feedback and encouraged me over the many months I've been working on this, or whose existing entries I've made use of.

Of course, if you still spot anything you feel needs changing or adding .... I'll be running in the opposite direction, screaming.

Cheers, Liz

 

 

Re: History of Gondor entry

Hi Liz!

This is superb work! Thank you for doing it!

I've sent you some final feedback in an email; feel free to put it through the shredder...

- Barbara

 

 

Re: History of Gondor entry

Hi All

I've worked through the superb feedback from Barbara (many thanks!), so this really ought to be the final, final version. However, if anyone spots any thing weird still in there, please do let me know.

Cheers, Liz

 

 

A few Palantír events...

Hi everyone,

I was just going to add one quote to the Denethor bio -- honest! But there was a mention of him looking in the palantír and I thought, hmmmm, we really should have an Event for that..........

So, what I ended up doing is this:

Expanded Lyllyn's Palantíri entry, adding a few quotes, a History section, and a Table of Contents.

Added the following palantír-related Events:

Palantíri divided among the Realms in Exile

Cardolan and Rhudaur dispute possession of the Palantír of Amon Sûl
Palantír of Amon Sûl removed to Fornost
Palantíri of Annúminas and Amon Sûl lost at sea
Palantír of Emyn Beraid sent West

Palantír of Osgiliath lost in the Kin-strife
Saruman begins using the Palantír of Orthanc
Denethor begins using the Palantír of Minas Tirith
Aragorn looks into the Palantír of Orthanc
Denethor deceived by Sauron via the Palantíri
Palantír of Minas Tirith burned
Palantír of Minas Ithil presumed destroyed in the Fall of Barad-dûr

And a few others:
Bilbo finds the One Ring
Fall of Barad-dûr
Faramir brings news of Frodo and Sam to Minas Tirith

Oh, I guess I haven't added that quote to Denethor's bio yet....

- Barbara, still wondering how she got hijacked by a palantír....

 

 

Re: Announcements and Feedback Requests (current)

Hi everyone!

Let's congratulate Iel_o_Thorongil for adding Place number 500, Tolfalas!

- Barbara

 

 

Added event #1000

I added event number 1000, the Invasion of the Westfold by Saruman. It is definitely a Work in Progress at this point: I exceeded the 11000 word limit for a chapter (with the entire main section missing), so have to figure out how to break it up into more than one document.

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Added event #1000

WOO-HOO!

Congratulations to everyone building this, and Barbara gets the golden keyboard award for the 1000th entry. Barbara, you are amazing. I bow in awe!

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Added event #1000

Barbara gets the golden keyboard award for the 1000th entry. Barbara, you are amazing. I bow in awe!

Thank you, Lyllyn! I'm pretty thrilled, myself....

- Barbara

 

 

Re: Announcements and Feedback Requests (current)

Hi all.

Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I nothing else seemed better.

Anyway, I was browsing through an archery article yesterday, and today the link is gone. Has someone removed the article? It was about basic archery info.

Thanks,

Werecat

 

 

Re: Announcements and Feedback Requests (current)

Hi Werecat,

Anyplace that gets our attention is a good place to post.

I'm not sure which article you were looking at, or where you found the link. I see one archery article, here. called "Archery Help for Writers in Middle-earth." Is this the one you were looking at?

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: Announcements and Feedback Requests (current)

YES!

Thanks, Lyllyn. For some reason, this article refused to reveal itself in repeated searches.

Is there any way one can bookmark articles?

Thanks a million times for your help,
Werecat

 

 

Re: Announcements and Feedback Requests (current)

Hi!

I added a very minimal bio for Barahir, and want to invite anyone to add quotes to complete the entry -- pretty please?

- Barbara

 

 

Event number 1100!

Woohoo!

I just added event number 1100, Dwarves explore the Great Hall of Thráin... if I had realized that a century mark was coming along, I would have picked something more glamorous!

- Barbara

 

 

Event number 1200! And Bio number 400!

I just added Event number 1200, Frodo and Sam cast away their Orc-gear and Bio number 400, Gorbag!

Woohoo!

- Barbara, scurrying back to work....

 

 

New Overviews!

Hi!

I think I'm going to announce new Overviews here as I complete them, because I'm proud of them and invite you to look at them and make suggestions....

Here's what I've done in the last couple of months:

Battle between Arthedain and Rhudaur

Attack on the Camp at Weathertop
Attack at the Ford of Bruinen
Battle of the Morannon

(A couple of these were existing entries that I converted to battle overviews... and added lots of auxiliary Events.)

And now I'm working on the Destruction of the One Ring....

- Barbara, busy Resources bee

 

 

For Aranel Took:

Hi Aranel!

I just saw your Gamgee children bio, and you did a good job of organizing the very little information available about them... nicely done!

I hope you don't mind, but I edited it to remove all the "N/A"s from the small fields (Other Names, Title, etc.)... we leave those fields blank if there is not information available or the item is not applicable. When the small fields are left blank, they do not display, which makes for a cleaner entry.

Also, I'm in the process of converting all the database entries into using the new Style Classes that Ang created for us. Your entry is in an unusual configuration -- that is, it doesn't consist of quotes or comments like the other entries; it's more complex. Because I now have a lot of experience using the style classes, I'd like to offer my services to convert your entry. I have some idea how to incorporate the classes while keeping the same general format as you used, edit: which works especially well for a group of people.

If you'd like to see examples of the new style classes, see any of the recently-updated entries on the Resources home page... I recommend the event Isildur cuts the One Ring from Sauron's hand, which contains both quotes (blue background) and commentary (tan background).

Let me know here if you'd like me to convert your entry; I may not get to it immediately, but I would be glad to put it on my to-do edit: (reasonably soon) list.

- Barbara

 

 

Re: For Aranel Took:

Hi Barbara,

I can fix the entry if you can tell me what to add for the style classes. I was not aware of the new guidelines or how to add the styles. There should probably be a style guide posted on the Volunteers page with a correctly formatted entry and the code and tags to get there. (If there *is* a style guide already there, I can't find it). I'm a Mac user, so I can't use the Excel template I was originally given by Lyllyn--I have to code by hand. The entry is still in the preliminary stage and I still have work to do on it (when time allows), so I will need to know how to add the styles.

I used another "group" entry (The Fellowship) as my template for adding a group, which uses the N/As, so I was also unaware about leaving them blank.

Also... things like this--notices of new style guidelines or corrections needed to an entry--should probably be emailed to volunteers. I just don't have time to read forums every day and would have probably missed this if not for Juno pointing it out to me. I wouldn't even have known about the new styles except for Juno telling me, because they only show up very faintly on my laptop's screen and I never noticed them until she pointed it out.

Thanks,

Aranel Took

 

 

Re: Event number 1200! And Bio number 400!

I just added Event number 1200, Frodo and Sam cast away their Orc-gear and Bio number 400, Gorbag!

Woo-hoo!!!!!

Congrats Barbara - wonderful work.

Lyllyn, admiring.

 

 

Re: For Aranel Took:

You're right that we need to notify and post the new style guidelines. Since the Resources revisions are still not finalized (although the styles are), anyone adding them has been manually coding them. Eventually we should have a more automatic way to apply them, and at that point we'll ask everyone to use them.

I also use a Mac. I'm not sure why the excel template is giving you problems - can I help? I hate to see you doing so much extra work!

Lyllyn

 

 

Re: For Aranel Took:

Hi Aranel,

I can fix the entry if you can tell me what to add for the style classes.

The reason I offered to do it is that I'm not sure exactly how to do it at this point -- I would basically have to experiment with it to see what ends up looking the best. It would be far easier to experiment -- and then send you the resulting text file so you could use it as the basis for any future modifications -- than to try to describe what I only *think* might work.

That is only because your entry has a more complex structure than the usual kind, which consists of discrete quotes and discrete comments -- so it would be far easier to *do* it than to *describe* the process...

Like, off the top of my head, I think I would use footnotes to identify the canon source for each item. For example, list a character's birth date, then a footnote number that identifies the source as the Family Trees from Appendix C (as opposed to our standard practice of putting the citation under each quote (birthdate)). There would be one footnote with that citation in our standard format (from the Citations spreadsheet), with multiple items (dates) referring to it edit: by number using superscripts. But that's just an initial brainstorm... a nice theory that might not work out well in fact...

I was not aware of the new guidelines or how to add the styles.

They were implemented recently, and no one has had the time to create a style guide. In fact, I have been the only one to use them, because I've been the only one who has added entries in the last couple of months, since they've been available... But I've added almost 200 new entries in the new styles, and have upgraded quite a number of older entries (because, with the new HTML editor, if you touch an older entry -- even just to add an Other Name -- it destroys the paragraph structure of the original entry.... so it's just as easy to upgrade the entry at that point than to just fix the paragraph breaks).

So, I offered to do this for you because I *personally* would like to see new entries use the new styles (because, frankly, it's going to take me *forever* to convert the entire database of 2500+ entries...) *and* because this particular entry will be a bit complex *and* because I now have a lot of experience with the styles... and I'm really sorry if I gave you the impression that it was an "official" demand!

I'm a Mac user, so I can't use the Excel template I was originally given by Lyllyn--I have to code by hand.

I'm not sure what Excel template you are referring to... do you mean the Links spreadsheet (for in-text links) or the Citations spreadsheet (for citations)? I maintain those, and I am very concerned if they are not useable on a Mac... Unfortunately, I have no Mac experience, so maybe Lyllyn could help you figure out what the problem is? She uses a Mac, I believe.... and the spreadsheets.

Added: If the spreadsheets would become useable in text files rather than spreadsheets, I would gladly send you those instead. I will be sending out a new set in the next few weeks, anyway, because of all the new entries I've added recently.

I used another "group" entry (The Fellowship) as my template for adding a group, which uses the N/As, so I was also unaware about leaving them blank.

That was a good idea! Yes, there are many problems with earlier entries, which were done before we really started to develop informal guidelines.... We will have a lot of work to do to upgrade older entries (the N/As in the small fields are the least of the problems)... but I just didn't want to see a new entry with an old problem... especially since the software is so cleverly designed to not display (small) fields that are blank.

Also... things like this--notices of new style guidelines or corrections needed to an entry--should probably be emailed to volunteers.

*Sigh* I'm so sorry if I gave you the impression that they were *official*... They will be someday soon, I hope, but IMO not until Lyllyn (the Resource Manager -- I'm just a researcher) documents style guidelines and asks us researchers to follow them... that's when an email would go out. She hasn't even had an opportunity to use them herself so far, and is very busy elsewhere right now.

The *only* reason I said anything was because your entry is complex, and I thought that my experience with the style classes would be helpful...

I wouldn't even have known about the new styles except for Juno telling me, because they only show up very faintly on my laptop's screen and I never noticed them until she pointed it out.

Oh, dear! I really think they make entries a lot more readable (for example, by clearly delineating quotes/citations from commentary), but that's only if they show up! *sigh*

Anyway, I'm very sorry if I made it sound like some sort of demand, but my offer to convert your entry still stands, and to send you the resulting text file so that you can edit: control and modify your entry in the future. Added: And I would work with you to try to keep the format of your entry as close to its current form as possible, and make it something that you approve of.

And I'll try to pull together, not a complete style guide, but a few examples of how to incorporate styles into new entries... which I will post in this forum.

- Barbara

 

 

Re: For Aranel Took:

Hi Barbara,

Sorry. I misunderstood your post.

The entry is still only preliminary. I only threw in the stuff from the Appendices and the one bit I remembered from the Reader, just so it wasn't sitting there blank. There is some other stuff I need to add, it's just I have some other projects demanding attention at the moment. Which is why I would need to know the style tags, for when I add stuff to the entry. Go ahead and do whatever you need to do to experiment with the styles and I can add the rest later. But... wouldn't the experimenting be better done offline rather than on a "live" page?

Regarding Excel: I don't have Excel and I don't have anything that will open Excel files. (I only said "Mac User" because it's so often assumed that I run Windows and use Word and Excel). If the spreadsheet is just the citations, could the non-Excel users get a copy in RTF instead? If Lyllyn has Excel on her Mac, she could also "Print to PDF" to generate a PDF file.

Thanks,
Aranel Took

 

 

Re: For Aranel Took:

Hi Lyllyn,

RE: Excel. I answered that in my reply to Barbara. I don't have Excel and have no way to open Excel files. Could you print the spreadsheet to a PDF?

On the styles... I have to admit that I hate using the online editor in anything other than Plain Text mode. For the styles--when it's all final, could we get an external CSS file to download with the relevant style definitions for Resources entries? I like to do all my stuff offline, as the online editor has a nasty habit of eating posts. That way, I could just set it up in GoLive to generate the HTML for the entry with the appropriate CSS tags and copy it into the Plain Text online editor.

Thanks,

Aranel Took

 

 

Re: For Aranel Took:

Hi Aranel,

The entry is still only preliminary. ... Which is why I would need to know the style tags, for when I add stuff to the entry.

Oh, no problem at all... I'd do the conversion, then send you a text file containing all the tags so you can continue to work on the entry whenever you can...

But... wouldn't the experimenting be better done offline rather than on a "live" page?

Yes, a good idea. I'll do it in a stub entry that will not be visible to the public, but will be visible to you when you log onto the Volunteers section of Resources.

Regarding Excel: I don't have Excel and I don't have anything that will open Excel files.

Oh, dear, that is a problem!

I'm not familiar with the Mac, but surely there is a free Excel viewer available? If not, I believe that OpenOffice (which is free) is also available for the Mac.

If the spreadsheet is just the citations, could the non-Excel users get a copy in RTF instead?

First of all, there are two spreadsheets involved, both of which are *very* large and will take a lot of extra work to convert regularly to a different format.

The Links spreadsheet contains in-text links to other entries; for example, your entry has a reference to Elanor Gamgee, who has a bio herself, so that reference should be linked to that bio.

The Citations spreadsheet has 9 subsheets, each of which contains all the citations for one book (except that all of the HoME series is together on one subsheet, and Other books (e.g. Atlas of Middle-earth) are together on another.

If Lyllyn has Excel on her Mac, she could also "Print to PDF" to generate a PDF file.

I just attempted to print a small subset (< 10%) of the Links spreadsheet to PDF, and ran into all sorts of problems.

First, the columns are not fixed-length, and some are very long, so the links often fall off the end of the page (even in landscape mode). Even if you could copy a link, you would always have to remember to make sure that the < /a > is at the end of each.

Secondly, I couldn't copy text from the PDF, which renders it useless. The whole point of the spreadsheets is to make it easy for researchers to copy-and-paste pre-formatted text to their entries, instead of having to format a link or format a citation on the fly each time one is needed... so, not being able to copy text from it is not particularly useful.

I *can* convert each page of the spreadsheets to text for you -- either tab-delimited or comma-separated, your choice. (Unicode is also an option.) If you go with either form of text file, you'll have to remove the quote marks from around each link/citation, *and* convert two consecutive quote marks to one quote mark within each.

But that's still a lot easier than creating each link or citation on the fly....

With text files, you would lose the color coding in the Links spreadsheet (red for Bios, green for Things, blue for Places, black for Events).... but it would probably still be worth having *something* to copy....

I won't be sending out new spreadsheets for at least a couple weeks (they take a lot of work to add all the new entries)... but let me know whether you want me to convert them to text, and if so, whether tab-delimited or comma-delimited....

- Barbara

 

 

Place number 600!

Hi all!

Just added Place number 600, Woody End!

- Barbara

 

 

Re: New Overviews!

Hi,

There's another new Overview:

Destruction of the One Ring

with 50 (yes, 50!) associated events.....

Between this overview and the Battle of the Morannon, the ten days after the Battle of the Pelennor are fairly well covered...

Except for the incidents with Shelob and the Orcs in Cirith Ungol, of course.... will get those done eventually...

- Barbara

 

 

Sorry to bug you...

...but I wanted to know if you managed to find a Resources volunteer by now for putting together the Resources bulletin.

Please let me know who will be in charge of that in time for posting the relevant news (September 16), so we can get together to synchronize bulletin and news!

Thank you,
Juno

P.S.: You can mail me off-list or drop me a line in the volunteers forums. 

 

 

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